I just got done with a 2 day at streets of willow and want some performance improvement advise.
Day #1 Streets of Willow CW; best lap 1:31.7
Day #2 Streets of Willow CCW; best lap 1:33.4

I'm a little frustrated at how sloppy my mini is around a turn and how much wheels spin and traction loss I'm suffering around a tight little track like streets of willow. I'm not concerned with the mini's lack of power as I knew that getting in the car. I've listed the current configuration of my car below and I'm curious as to what I can do it to improve the performance of the mini to the point where I'm able to drive against other cars in my group skill level without being a speed bump.

I went to Streets of Willow at WSIR with my friend who owns a Honda S2000 2005 AP2 generation, also a daily driven street car with the configuration listed below. Both cars are fairly comparable interms of being modded, it's not like one is full blown track car and the other is a grocery getter.

I was so annoyed at the mini being so outgunned in clockwise, that my friend let me drive her s2000 in the advanced run group. I have extensive track time at streets of willow having been there on bikes and in previous track cars, but it was my first time driving an S2000 around streets. I am aware of the s2000's ability to bite the driver with snap on oversteer so I was tip toeing until I built the confidence to push the car. After 2 sessions, I was able to lay down 1:30.035, basically on the cusp of braking into the 1:29s and definitely with room for improvement.

On day 2 I ran 1.5 sessions in the mini before I gave up on it and exclusively drove the s2000. I have significantly less track time in the CCW configuration and I was able to put down 1:33.035 on the mcs before I felt that the brakes were done (pedal to the floor entering the bowl at triple digits is not comforting. On the s2000 I started at around 1:36 and dropped time each time out until I reeled off a single laptime of 1:32.067 on my last session with the sun going down. Typically, the end of the day is where my worst times are on any machine as the tires/track get cold, weird shadows develop on the track and of course the crazy winds start rolling in. I definitely know there is significant room for me to improve in the s2000 as I was just learning the car and the configuration, whereas the mini felt like the car was asking for mercy. Apparently my friends said that there were periods on the track where they witnessed the mcs going 3 wheeling.

I'm curious as to the setup required for my car to consistently make 1:27-1:29 feasible and what the cost will be to achieve that mark. I know relatively stock s2000 can run that all day long.

2005 Honda S2000 AP2
Aero: Honda OEM CR Trunk & Wing
Wheels & Tires: Stock AP2 size with 215/45/17 & 245/40/17 Hankook RS-3 Brakes: Carbotech Xp12 & Xp10 pads; centric premium blanks; RBF600, stoptech brake lines
Suspension: stock
Bracing: stock
ASM 70mm exhaust

My current mini's configuration:
Stock ECU
15% Pulley; jcw plugs
Bracing: 22mm adjustable progress rear sway bar; m7 front strut brace; TSW x brace
Suspension: stock
Camber plates: stock
intake: alta v1
exhaust: m7
Solid Mounts: tsw engine mount, powerflex upper, lower and trans bushings
Wheels: ASA Revolution 17x7
Tires: Hankook RS-3 215/45/17
brakes: oem R53 calipers w/ Carbotech Xp12 front; carbotech xp10 rear; centric premium blank rotors; motul rbf600; stock lines (waiting on my WMW braided lines)
BAFFLED/trap door oil PAN!!!!

My r53 04 is a daily driver that needs to survive me and 2 dogs, 1 full size dog and 1 pint sized dog. That said I'm not entertaining any straight track prepped car configurations, but I'm very tolerable to losing ride quality in the sake of better track performance.

 

Quaife will cure the inside wheel spinning up coming out of slow to medium speed corners. It also annoyed the heck out of me and was my first mod.

 

Rear sway bar, Camber plates (adjustable)!
You have good tires, throw some lowering springs on to tighten everything up.
Also ditch the rear seat backs at the track.

You will see a huge difference, those two items alone completely changed my MINI!

Can't imagine driving my MINI without either.

Lots of different companies out there, personal preference
I'm running the 25mm H-sport bar, and SPC camber plates couldn't be happier
Of course now I'm moving on to some Yellow Konis to wrap up my suspension.

A couple little tweaks and that S2000 should be dust in the turns, just got to be careful with the power the Honda is making in the straights.

Congrats I consider the R53 and the S2000 the two best drivers cars out there!
Both totally different to drive, but I'll take the MINI for the win!

 

Can we assume your stock suspension is all fully operational all bushings and wear and tear items good to go? Worn bushings would cause a lot if sloppiness...what setting is the progress bar set at? Also as others have noted an LSD would do wonders for wheel spin.

Better brakes for sure...if you want to continue down this path..

 

Bushings have pretty much been all replaced and supplemented with power flex already. My stock shocks have 74k miles on them and while they are still quite firm, I have had my eye on a set of megans.

Guys I know what the tuning program is suppose to look like and yes it is possible to just throw money at the problem. The question I ask is how much money do I need to lob at the problem in order to bring me from the 1:31s down to the 1:29s??

I definitely could go get roll center adjusters, camber plates, coilovers, os giken diff, adjustable end links, big brake kit...hell r comps might just get me the 2 seconds I'm after. However, I'm looking for the least modded platform to get me to that range. I'm one of those people that likes to take the least amount of car and extract every ounce of potential.

BTW is their a lap time thread of minis/tracks/mods/times?

 

My thought is your stock springs are not up to the job.
I did various track days with my 03 MCS with H&R springs, stock shocks, and adj rear sway bar. I impressed many competitors/instructors with how fast the Mini was on the track and the car was still a good daily driver.

For the lowest cost change, I would at least install different springs.

I am a big fan of front camber plates to increase the negative camber but that is more money. Also camber plates with your 22mm rear bar might create a little too much overstreer on the track requiring a switch to a slightly smaller rear bar and additional cost (maybe you swap bars without someone at almost no additional cost).

 

That's simple then:
1) Lose weight
2) Get some decent instruction.

 

Looking at your list there is many things that can be done to go faster:

1. Let me drive your car
2. R comp tires, you def will go faster usually about 3 sec faster on a 60 sec course, BUT these will cover up mistakes you may be making and hinder your learning.
After that from what you said adding more power will be a huge waste as you can't get it to the ground without an LSD or better tires. So you def need to look at suspension or an LSD. Sot this is the two directions I recommend:
1. Install a quaife LSD, better than the giken for a daily driver but will def get the power to the ground. I'd expect you to be about $2-2500 installed

2. Coilovers. Wait now, don't just get coilovers do all the suspension now and do it right once. That means a matched set of coilovers, camber plates, and rear control arms. and if you want to corner weight it you'll need adjustable sway bar links.
So our TSW spec KWs, with Vorshlag camber plates and Hsport rear camber links, then WMW sway bar links. This will be a SWEEEEET setup. Good not to firm daily ride, not harsh either, but performance and predictability at the track. Then with the camber plates you'll get better rotation, and tire wear.

Now I realize what all I've recommend is expensive. BUT your looking for a couple seconds so you got to go big. Small changes, and dropping weight isn't going to do it.

 

So I found a post of RMW running 1:28s @ Streets of Willow.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...of-willow.html

Looks like I need to throw another ~$2000 at this car in suspension to get anywhere near that time of 1:28 that jan laid down. Of course I'm missing the stroker motor, too.

I'm at a crossroads in the mini's life. I know if I just demod the car or stop right, I'll have a relatively functional daily driver that can limp around a race track, go to costco and get about daily business.

...and if I don't throw anymore money at it, that ~$2k will get me 20% of the way towards an S2000 which can lap 1:26+ with tires, xp12/10, RBF600 and lines.

I almost wouldn't mind spending the money, but as most of you point out, I NEED the Quaife, torsen LSD or OS Giken - which makes me dread spending another 15+ hrs in the garage ripping the front end out of the car with DIY garage tools lol

 

If any of you have not gotten a chance to drive with a relatively competent s2000 driver, you need to hop on a ride on a track with someone.

The car's corner entrance speed, the sound of the f20c/f22c, braking and corner speed are just phenomenal. I was freaking screaming like a little girl when my friend first entered the bowl @ 115 (indicated) mph in CCW configuration.

I also rode in a BRZ/FRS this weekend (coilovers, RS3, carbotech, RBF660, lines) and the car is capable but not nearly as WOW as the s2k.

 

I've loaded lumber into my Mini, large Ikea boxes, and at one point an entire exhaust system, or even 4 large adults. Cannot be done in an S2K. I looked at them when buying a car. May be more track-capable outta the box, but there are trade-offs for that sometimes. Not the most on-topic response, but it seems you're on the fence with the Mini versus a Honda, and I'm just helping you weigh that out.

 

I've enjoyed reading this thread so far, partly because I'm looking at getting on the track some day, and partly because it was something to do in my history of labor markets class.

To me, it seems like you want an S2000. You seem to be going down the road of "I know I want it but I'll try to talk myself out of it". If that's the case, you're never really going to be happy with the Mini. At least I wouldn't think so. You'll have to throw money into the Mini that you wouldn't have to throw into the S2000. So even if you start to smoke that Honda in the corners, you'll still be thinking about how it took much more in modifications in order to do so. It would just be a shame to go down that road and do all that work only to not be happy in the end.

Personally, I am going down that road. But I love the car, and I've never really been behind the wheel of anything else that made me say "wow I want this car". Plus I like the idea of having a Mini that blows vehicles like an S2000 away.

 

lol you are right 03EmCeeS, I do want the S2000, in particular a 08/09 CR edition (non delete model). Out of the box even more track ready than the AP1/AP2 with the best refinements of both.

But as Tremperj also pointed out, I bought the MCS when the price of oil was going crazy and I could no longer fathom getting 14 mpg out of a tundra and parking it anywhere near SF.

Also when we go to trackdays, I'm the one hauling the dogs, jack, tool box, cooler, extra wheels etc, bc s2ks can haul a helmet, a gf and a modest suitcase.

The MCS was a great compromise car which could do almost everything I asked out of it.

I also come from the motorcycle racing world, where the rules and confinement of racing basically have all competitors on relatively similar machinery. Just pick your favorite color GSXR600, CBR600RR, R6R, ZX6R and have it against your friends and you have the peace of mind knowing everybody is on relatively similar footing (only so many changes you can make, no fancy wheels, no fancy suspension just a triple adjustable shock + fork internal upgrades, no fancy bbk or master cylinders and everybody is on the same tire).

I was hoping someone would tell me that the r53 MCS is capable out of the box of 1:29s @ streets of willow or 2:05s out of the box @ buttonwillow CW #13, etc. But atlas, that does not seem to be the case.

Btw, I cannot stress this enough, the MCS is capable of oil starvation on the track so to those of you who are chasing down s2ks, corvette C5/6, miatas, frs/brz, at the very least you need to run a MORE baffled oil pan or a trap door. Having an oil gauge won't help because by the time it tells you it ran low on oil pressure, it is too late and you might as well start looking for a new short block.

...also I forgot to mention, I thought the weight of the stock battery was insane so I made my own LiFeP04 battery pack so that's my 40 lbs weight saving. I drive with it around town (within the range of friends, but when I venture out to a track, which is typically in BFE in california, I strap in the stock group 47 battery but once I get to the track, drop the lithium battery back in.

 

It sounds more and more like the Mini is not the vehicle for you in this situation. You seem to appreciate the convenience that it gives you, and the idea that it can find itself on the track after hauling things to the track, but it doesn't seem like that is doing it for you. It honestly sounds like you're after something that is more track capable.

None of my business, so don't feel like you have to answer this with specific information, but are you in a better position to modify the Mini and make it more track ready, or to sell the Mini and purchase an S2000?

If you were to sell the Mini, it sounds like you'd need a way to get things to the track. Just find another person to add to your track day group and make sure they own a larger vehicle!

 

Two guys in my club have S2Ks, one is a CR in black. That is a nice car and fast too. Anyway they both have hitches and small trailers for their track tires and tool boxes. Just sayin...

 

Yeah I've got the kit for my Miata as well good for local tracks but when you need to stay over night it just invites theft.

S2000s aren't like fireballs. A well mildly modded mini can keep in a straight, its when the braking and turning happen that mini feels well for a lack of a better word slovenly.

Also its my first ff car but not being able to brake and throttle steer at the same time kind of limits your arsenal of tools on a track? What is the ff equivalent to this technique?

 

My 2 cents worth: 1) A tune 2) some good springs 3) neg camber plates 4) Rear adjustable control arms 5)a good alignment with at least -2 degrees up front, -1.5 or more in the rear, at or close to zero toe front and rear. That's about $2K worth. You can throw more $ at it but the return will be minimal.

 

Like I said previously, I have yet to have my Mini on the track. I am also new to cars, I came over from the world of Jeeps. So if I missed something here excuse my ignorance...

But, isn't the entire advantage that is constantly talked about with a Mini the handling and how it will set the Mini apart from other vehicles on the track? I feel that my car handles well with the Megan coilovers. I could understand that it feels a bit loose with stock suspension, but even while stock, isn't the handling supposed to be better than most comparable vehicles?

 

I never driven Willow Springs but at the tracks I have run I found the setup on my old 03 Cooper S (H-Sports Springs, Koni Yellows, Rear lower control arms, rear sway 19mm on stiffest setting, sticky DOT tires and a good alignment) did excellent cornering with controlled driving and embarrassed many cars and drivers.

And that was with the stock open diff. I'm not knocking LSD, had it forever in my rear drive cars but that a little more $ and work than I wanted to put into a daily driver/ track day car.

I was also posting slower lap times than I like with the slightly modded engine especially on the larger tracks. I tried a heavy does of horse power in the form of an 03 Z06 def faster but for me practicality had to win out and the corvette went to an old guy with a gold chain.

Now after a couple year of mini van driving I'm back in an 05 mini. I plan to do the suspension similar to Jan's reccomendation but I don't think I will ever crack open the transfer case.

So after all this rambling I would recommend springs, shocks and practice if you want to keep the practicality of the Mini or a Corvette if you want to smoke the S2000 and most everything else

Note: Practice is even more important in the Vett as "flooring it" is rarely an option on the road or track, with the rear drive and extra horsepower control is much more difficult.

 

Let me take a stab at this one...The key word here is "comparable". In street trim, the MINI Cooper S is superior to comparable vehicles. Many vehicles like the Honda S2000, BMW M3, WRX STi, some Porsches, etc. have better handling and more hp than our stock MINI's but, when properly modded with suspension and engine enhancements, and in the hands of a competent driver, they can be made to not only stay with but, in many cases, out-perform them.

 

Totally agree, and unless your are specifically chasing your friend's S2000 even if you change cars there is always going to be a group of faster guys and gals. It won't be long till you'll want that S2000 to be as fast as those Porches. Speed and competition is highly addictive. Welcome to the club. Start practicing the speech for why your kid can't go to the private college they got accepted into.

 

Private college is a scam anyway! Hell, public college when out of state is a scam as well. Don't even get me started.

From what I've seen, its cheaper to pick up a Mini and make it competitive than it is to pick up other vehicles that are already at that level. And I agree with this statement above. Even if you did pick up the vehicle that is better from the start, you're going to mod that one as well. So, I guess with all of that said, buy the car you love the most, because no matter what you're going to throw money at it. Might as well enjoy the money you're spending.

And to add on to this conversation, do those that take their Mini to the track on a regular basis put that much more emphasis on handling upgrades? I understand that no matter how much power you have, its worthless without being able to put it to the ground efficiently. But are you guys avoiding major motor work?

 

For me personally the issue is the tuning process. I don't have a tuner (that I know of) that is close and with three little kids and a wife taking off to have the mini tuned on a dyno isn't going to happen.

On the last mini I did simple engine mods (bypass, intake, cam, pulley and exhaust) and I did two different remote tunes and one dyno tune. I wasn't completely happy with any of the results. I want to be able to do it myself and take the time to try to work out the tune to my level of satisfaction.

So this time I bough a JCW car and I'm thinking of trying the ByteTronik setup on my own. But I'm going to do the suspension stuff first (I do have access to an alignment machine) and get my feet wet on the ByteTronik stuff without making significant changes to the engine.

Also I need to pass emissions.

 

Honestly, I would do coilovers and camber plates and see how far that gets you. An LSD is necessary for the track, but less so once you get a good set of coilovers, as the stiffer spring rates will help with body roll, and help to keep more weight on that inside front corner. I don't know how you were overheating XP12's, but then again, I've never been on the Streets of Willows, just Thunderhill, PIR, The Ridge and ORP. I also have the JCW front brakes. For a little cheaper alternative, you might consider swapping to R56S front brakes (same as Gen1 JCW). The bigger rotors will help with your brake fade. As will some brake cooling ducts. R compound tires are always worth another second as well. And with the back seat removed, they fit perfectly across the width of the car. This is the route I would go before spending BIG money on an LSD. Eventually though......you're going to want that LSD. My first '06 S was fun, but the lack of LSD was killing me at autocrosses. I now have an '06S JCW with the stock LSD. MUCH better, and the stock LSD is crap. Can't imagine what it would be like with a better LSD.

 

it depends what you consider the class of vehicle is:
vw gti
civic si
fiat 500 abath
etc

yeah it's pretty good against those.

It's a fairly well balanced and forgiving chassis setup from the factory that allows people to explore high performance driving without getting bitten in the *** by a 911, lotus elise or s2000.

but a mildly sorted NA series miata will eat a Mini Cooper S for breakfast and I'm not talking about even considering approaching a DC2 Integra Type R, which is probably the epitome of a sorted FF setup.