Just trying to distinguish proximate cause... My R53 is by far the fastest car I have ever owned, and the first I have ever modded. So I'm not sure if it allows me to go faster and do stupider things, and the brakes are actually good, or if I'm driving similarly to the way I've always driven, and the brakes actually suck.

I've owned the car since August. Obviously the "brakes" are better on warm roads with my Yokohama S-Roads than on cold roads with my Nokian snows (which are not spiked, but are still treacherous on anything other than snow and ice). I can't help but feel like the brakes suck. I have new (OEM-quality, according to the previous owner's service records) rotors on the rear, and both sets of brake pads (also OEM quality, front and rear) have plenty of life left, for what it's worth.

 

I just put on my snows, and noticed how much less braking power I have on normal roads.

Brake fluid makes a big difference also, over time it breaks down get's air bubbles has softer pedal. You could put in stainless brake lines, helps with pedal feel, but really does not offer more braking power which is ultimately limited by the coefficient of friction between your tires and road. The brakes should always be able to outbrake the tires, which is why we have anti-lock brakes.

We often forget how much the road quality affects braking. Is the surface wet, new, old, oily, sandy, muddy, cold, hot, downslope, upslope, off-camber, cornering. Downslope can make a big difference!

Then there is tires, proper pressure, tread depth, temperature, alignment/camber and on and on.

Some aftermarket pads have a litte more 'bite' to them, or more tecnically higher friction point and wear rotors a little faster, but you basically cannot have the rotors turned anyway since they are basically designed not to. Aftermarket pads like Carbotech or Hawk or EBC are not much more expensive than OEM ones.

Some food for thought.

 

You hit it pretty much on the head. All other technical considerations aside, they do suck for the stopping power the OEM brakes provide for such a little car. Recommend upgrading the R53 brakes to one of the big brake kits like Brembo, etc. You will appreciate it much more!

 

Stock r53 brakes are pretty damm good...the jcw's are almost overkill if everything is working properly....Many folks go the cheap way out and replace ONLY THE PADS....
the rotors wear, become undersized, and the calipers cannot "squeeze" it with the pads as hard...
If you know the pads are approprate, quality and heat range, and the fluid is good, i would suspect the rotors, even if smooth, are worn out and undersized....or maybe glazed pads....

 

I think the rotors are in pretty good shape. I'm sure the rears are very close to new (<8k km). I have decent calipers and could measure them. What kind of measurement would I be looking for, front and rear?

I know the pads are NOT any kind of performance compound, and sort of wondered if that would actually help. Upgrading to a $2000 big-brake kit is definitely not in the cards for me right now, and probably not something I would consider doing on a car I had no intention of racing, anyway. (I'd rather buy a new bicycle that would get raced!) What's the consensus on some of these aftermarket kits? (e.g., Way's, Out Motoring's.) Are they between OEM and dedicated big-brake kits? Do they offer a performance upgrade that's worth the price, even if my OEMs do not need to be replaced at this time? i.e., I can see that it would make sense if one needed new brakes anyway, but is the performance upgrade worth replacing still-good OEM parts?

How about something like this from Way? I can't really tell: does it come with an adapter to space the stock caliper out to accommodate the larger rotor?

The fluid is in pretty good (aesthetic) shape, and I know it was bled when the rear rotors and pads were replaced (as above, <8k km ago). The lines are not stainless, and I would probably change them out if I were going to be purging the whole system anyway.

Lastly, I'm not outbraking my tires. I know what locking the wheels or engaging the ABS feels like, and I'm not doing that (even less so with my summer tires on; then I can really feel the weakness of the stock brakes!). I'm just...not impressed.

 

I think I would first do something simple and cheap to test improving brake power like flushing brake fluid if this is a used car and do not know if it has ever been done. If you are hands on, possibly pulling the pads and sanding off any glazing of pads.

I looked at big brake kit's but after a lot of discussion with some level headed installers I was decided against it. Most people said it really is only advantageous for track and makes a daily driver rough and herky-jerky and is just over-kill. So I did SS lines, new OEM rotors (Brembo), brass bushings, and Hawk HPS pads, and was good modest improvement, mostly in pedal feel.

If you don't know the age/wear of the front rotors and you know the rears are new I might put new OEM rotors up from and new pads all around.

Good luck with it, now off to work on my car...

 

I came from an e30 with stock brakes before my mini so I think the brakes on my mini are great.

However on an 89 GTI I built i used hawk hps pads and ate powerslots with great results.

 

I have a '99 Porsche Carrera 4 which has excellent brakes from the factory. I'd say they're equally as impressive as the engine. They are better than the brakes that came stock on my '04 MCS, but not hugely better.

When I buy a used car, I usually try to replace all 4 rotors, the pads and the brake fluid so that I know exactly what I am dealing with.

 

Can you give more details? An example? Do you compete the car at all? Are you finding yourself tripping the anti-lock system? What's going on there brother?

Cheers,

Charlie

 

That's a pretty good endorsement. I've never had anything in that league, but I've had three real BMWs over the years, and I can tell you my MINI outbrakes any of them. I guess it's all subjective, but I say stock brakes are excellent.

 

Curious too what you are comparing? You said the MCS is by far the most powerful car you've driven, what were your other cars? Did you expect to be black and blue from the shoulder harness after braking?

I think the brakes on My 05 MCS are great. What do yours do, does the pedal fade under hard braking. do the wheels lock up, does it pulse the pedal or shake the steering wheel?

 

I give up , I’ve googled, looked on Tire Rack, Discount Tire and yokohamatire.com.
What’s a “Yokohama S-Road?”

Did you mean Yokohama S-Drive?


ab

 

The OP has not given enough info as Charlie points out.
Applesauce, is this for daily driving, i.e., the brakes are not very hot? Or for track driving? Can you not get the brakes to lock up at all and activate the ABS? Are you saying that you are applying a reasonable amount of brake pressure and not getting a braking response? More info please ...

 

When the prior owner says "oem equivelents", that makes it sound like big box auto store specials...usually sold as oem equivelts for a few $$...usually like 35$ a pair...and i kinda doubt anybody who drives more agressivly than a granny would be happy....
The fact you cannot get the abs to activate or "overbrake your tires" tells me the pads are junk, glazed or rotors are undersized. Don't have a manual handy, but oem rotors are NOT MACHINABLE ...they have enough thickness for one set of oem pads....a very rotor frendly pad might get two sets...the oem rotors are pretty soft, and ger groved pretty easily.
Personly, i wouold just toss some centric rotors on (decent, but cheap oem equivents, lots of folks have had great luck, some even autox-ing with them)and pads of you choice...that way no chance of glazing a new set of pads on used rotors..pretty common, and imo very likly what happened in you case...
Heck selling a car..."new brakes" makes the deal seem better....but if done wrong is worse...
dot4 fluid is basicly clear....if it looks a bit like syrup, it is long overdur for a complete flush...schefuled for every 2 years....brakes a usually only bleed to get rid of bad/dirty fluid, and bubbles, not a compleete flush when brakes are done....
Dot4 fluid holds less mositure than older dot3...so it needs more care...but has a higher boil temp, and is a bit thinner to work better with antilock, dsc, etc systems that use rapid brake modulation.

 

My car brakes pretty good ('06 MC, stock pads, etc.) on 205/50/16 S.Drives, although I would like a more pronounced "bite" and will try aftermarket pads. On my snows, it brakes like ****, comparatively.. but you shouldn't be driving like a hooligan in the Winter on snow tires anyway. My guess is that snow tires and frozen roads are a big part of your problem.

 

OK... Sorry about not giving enough information. (I did write, however, that I wouldn't consider going with a big brake kit unless I were going to race it. I'm not racing it - or tracking it, or autocrossing it, or anything even remotely synonymous with "racing.") Yes, I mean Yokohama S-Drives. Dunno where I got "S-Roads" from. S-Drives. Nice tires, I think, but I don't have anything to compare them to on this car.

I can easily lock the tires or activate the ABS, especially on snow tires on cold and dry roads, and especially now that there's a foot of snow. But being able to lock the wheels is not an indicator of good brakes, I'd argue. Maybe I just don't have a clue? Possibly. The brake pedal does feel a bit spongy, but it doesn't pump up like it has air or water in the lines. There's no fade that I've experienced, but I don't think I've ever gotten them truly hot. I'm holding off flushing the system until I decide if I'm buying new pads and rotors... Then I'll just garage it for a weekend, let everything melt - I hate working on cars in winter - and do it all at once.

Maybe what I'm actually experiencing is just a heavy car? I've owned a sort of eclectic collection: 94 Toyoto 4-Runner (great for the first half-million miles), 87 and 2000 Jettas (both garbage, the latter more so), 83 BMW 528e (remarkable, in its way...). And some others.

Mostly I guess I'm just curious if upgrading the pads and rotors would improve braking in general. But if just being able to lock the wheels or activate the ABS is an indicator of good brakes, then I think I'll put the money toward 17x8s.

 

Take a look at the rubber hoses that connect to the calipers...
For just a few $$, you can get braded stainless, a nice upgrade, but i think if you keep it on the street, just getting everything to 100% will make you happy.
One thing that has not been mentioned (i know you said no bbk) is that r56 stock brakes are the same as r53 jcw brakes (minus the red paint).......so many folks going to bbk's like that option on gen1 cars...cheaper, and good pad/rotor avalibility forever...
Some bbk kits have drawbacks, like uneven pad wear that means you must really rotate the pads (or swap them) due yo the 4 puck desgin...
But like i stated before, get the car fixed, and i bet the stockers will make you happy. IMO NOTHING IS WORSE THAT CHEAP INFERIOR PADS.....

 

Cool. Like I said, I don't think there's anything actually broken, or needing to be fixed. But I'll try everything I can think to try - I'm already fishing for some R56 calipers! - before deciding that they're actually crap.

In any case, it doesn't matter all that much...because I love the car regardless!

 

Just a guess, you might have ceramic pads on the car. I tried them and didn't like them. Not a good feel to them, not a good bite and they make the pedal feel spongy. But they don't produce dust, so people get them. The brakes on your R53 should be just fine with right pads and a good brake fluid flush. My simple fix would be a set of Hawk HP Plus pads and, as I said, a brake fluid flush. The Hawk pads have more bite than the stock pads and you won't have to jump on the brakes to have them do what you want. Personally, for the street, the factory Mini pads, other than being really dusty, work really well. I have a R50 with factory pads and rotors (second set) and there is no problems with them. On the street I would be hard pressed to say that they are not as good as the brakes on my R56 S. Also, I have a friend who tracks his R53 with the stock brakes with track pads, no problems. The car has plenty of stopping power as it is.

BTY - If you go the route of getting the R56 calipers, you will need to get the brake lines from the R56 too. The R53 brake lines will not fit the R56 calipers.

 

Interesting info about the R56 brake upgrade. I have been putting off upgrading to slotted/drilled rotors for my R53 so that I could use up the pads the dealer put on the car before they sold it to me a couple years ago. Might have to look up those calipers and the appropriate rotors and pads when the time comes....

Applesauce: I was driving on S-Drives, but recently bought Continental Extreme Contact DW last month to replace the two S-Drives that were smooth as slicks. The other two S-Drives will likely get replaced before spring break, if they go as quickly as the others did, and when they do, I'm going to stick with the Continentals. They feel like they stick a lot better than the S-Drives.

C ya,
Dutch

 

Dear Applesauce - thanks for adding a bit more info. Others have offered some really good suggestions, including the possibility that the car is not running the OEM pads at the moment, or that the pads are glazed.

In my experience the OEM setup is quite good. I have been racing it for quite a while and have never found a reason to change it. Mind you 65-30 on an autocross course is quite different that 110-50 on a road course, but even so I have done a bit of the latter also. I have on a few occaisons left the rotors slightly blued and smoking.

Here's some data from an autocross, which across the bottom shows the car in the -.8 to -.9 G range in the braking areas.

For this reason I am scratching my head to explain your experiences...

Cheers,

Charlie

 

Maybe you already know this but I will bring it up anyway about the difference between the R56 S and the stock R53 S. The R56 S brakes are the same as the JCW brakes that went on the R53. The rotors are 294 mm, which is large than the stock R53 S rotors (286 mm comes to mind). My guess is, the slotted and drilled rotor that you want, if stock Mini parts, are the "JCW" option and these are larger than what you currently have on the car. To use those you will need the larger (longer) caliper bracket that goes from the spindle to caliper. These rotors are directly interchangable between the R53 JCW and the R56 S. I have used these on my R56 S and they look really sharp, but they didn't do well on the track with the pads I was using. Also, the larger rotor set up will require 16" wheels.

FWIW - Some find the Continental to be a little soft feeling. 2 or 3 psi higher tire pressure seems to cure that feeling. Otherwise a great tire.

 

Good info, thanks!

I had my eye on some aftermarket rotors specifically for the R53 without the JCW option. Now I'll get R56 calipers and hoses, some R56 slotted/drilled rotors, and new pads instead. It's probably about time the brakes were flushed with new fluid, too....

I'll test the theory about the Contis and tire pressure once I wear out the remaining tread (soon) on the S-Drives on the front. The ones on the back seem about right at 33PSI, but the back of the car is a lot lighter than the front....

C ya,
Dutch

 

Thanks for the comments and suggestions all. I think the reality is option a: I'm just going faster than I'm used to, and it's inertia I'm experiencing, not brakes one way or the other.

I'm going to see what I can find for R56 calipers, but might just replace the lines, flush the system, and replace the pads. Do rotors (i.e. drilled and/or slotted) make a real difference for anything other than fade or other issues relating to heat dissipation?

 

Drilled and slotted are for looks. Plain faced rotors work just as well on the track as slotted and drilled will actually crack around the holes when used under extreme conditions. Which means on the street there is no performance benefit to drilled and/or slotted. No help for heat or fade. That has more to do with the pads and cooling. Put them on for looks, can't hurt but don't expect help.