R50/53 E90 gas
Thread Starter
|
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 2
From: Oregon, USA
E90 gas
Just found out our wonderful legislature has mandated the use of E90 gas by next July. Anyone have any problems running this gas? Any additives you might suggest to help eliminate any potential problems?
Ethanol eh? I forget what the %s are, but Nebraska has had that crap in its gas for years...other places too? I never notice because I always get the premium stuff. I hear ethanol is only to "water down" gasoline and expand the market for corn.
Last edited by nabeshin; Dec 6, 2007 at 10:28 PM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,472
Likes: 2
From: Sterling, VA
I think your terminology is wrong. E90 would be 90% ethanol. As far as I can tell, Oregon mandated 10% ethanol. 10% is common in other parts of the U.S. (we use it here in Virginia) and shouldn't hurt your car at all. In fact, it will have a slightly-higher effective octane than fuel that's oxygenated with other compounds.
--Dan
Mach V Motorsports
Thread Starter
|
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 2
From: Oregon, USA
Ethanol eh? I forget what the %s are, but Nebraska has had that crap in its gas for years...other places too? I never notice because I always get the premium stuff. I hear ethanol is only to "water down" gasoline and expand the market for corn.
I do not think the government (your state? the Feds?) would make everyone use a gas that would ruin half the cars on the road. Beyond power loss, cleaner buring engines, and more money in your pocket, I don't see any harm.
I do not think the government (your state? the Feds?) would make everyone use a gas that would ruin half the cars on the road. Beyond power loss, cleaner buring engines, and more money in your pocket, I don't see any harm.
There was just an article on this in our local newspaper. Seem's our illustrious past Secretary of State, Bill Jones has convinced both OR and CA to mandate 10% ethanol.
Bottom line was that the 10%# causes NOx issues, but futher refining addresses the issue. It will be less efficient (i.e. lower MPG), but not notes about it being less effective.
...In 2004, a year after opening its doors, Pacific Ethanol embarked on itsmost important and potentially lucrative mission - an intensive lobbying effort with state bureaucrats to get California to increase further the percentage of ethanol used in gasoline.
Six percent assured some level of success, but Jones wanted to expand the market and the obvious way was to get California to do what some other states had done: allow a 10 percent ethanol blend in standard gasoline.
But he had a problem. While 6 percent ethanol helps gas burn more cleanly, at 10 percent the levels of smog-producing nitrogen oxide in fuel exhaust jumped considerably, state tests showed. That caused it to fall out of compliance with California's tough air quality laws.
Determined to prove that E10 - the name for the 10 percent ethanol blend - could be clean, Pacific Ethanol offered dozens of reports, memos and public testimony, repeatedly questioning the state's test results. "They accused us of cooking the books," said Catherine Witherspoon, who was the chief executive officer of the California Air Resources Board at the time. "There was non-stop pressure from Bill Jones and the ethanol lobby. We were constantly being harassed and it was clear they were not going to let up until they got their way."...
...Pacific Ethanol has already had success with E10 elsewhere.This year, the Oregon Legislature passed a law requiring that a 10 percent blend be sold in the state.
The law also had a built-in trigger that Pacific Ethanol helped shape, and then capitalized on. In order for the 10 percent mandate to take effect, a bio-fuel production plant had to be built in the state, generating at least 40 million gallons.
In October, Pacific Ethanol opened the first ethanol plant in Oregon. Production capacity: 40 million gallons.
"It might look like it happened magically, but there was a lot of planning involved," said Tom Koehler, vice president for public policy at Pacific Ethanol. "We assumed some risk by being the first to build in Oregon."
Pacific Ethanol also convinced the Oregon government to help with construction costs. By declaring part of its facility as a "waste treatment" plant, they were able to secure tax breaks worth more than $6 million.
To qualify, the waste material must be "useless, unwanted," under federal law. In fact, the treatment simply removes moisture from the corn byproduct that can then be sold to ranchers and dairy farmers as feed. The corn feed, Jones said, accounts for 25 to 35 percent of Pacific Ethanol's profits....
Bottom line was that the 10%# causes NOx issues, but futher refining addresses the issue. It will be less efficient (i.e. lower MPG), but not notes about it being less effective.
...In 2004, a year after opening its doors, Pacific Ethanol embarked on itsmost important and potentially lucrative mission - an intensive lobbying effort with state bureaucrats to get California to increase further the percentage of ethanol used in gasoline.
Six percent assured some level of success, but Jones wanted to expand the market and the obvious way was to get California to do what some other states had done: allow a 10 percent ethanol blend in standard gasoline.
But he had a problem. While 6 percent ethanol helps gas burn more cleanly, at 10 percent the levels of smog-producing nitrogen oxide in fuel exhaust jumped considerably, state tests showed. That caused it to fall out of compliance with California's tough air quality laws.
Determined to prove that E10 - the name for the 10 percent ethanol blend - could be clean, Pacific Ethanol offered dozens of reports, memos and public testimony, repeatedly questioning the state's test results. "They accused us of cooking the books," said Catherine Witherspoon, who was the chief executive officer of the California Air Resources Board at the time. "There was non-stop pressure from Bill Jones and the ethanol lobby. We were constantly being harassed and it was clear they were not going to let up until they got their way."...
...Pacific Ethanol has already had success with E10 elsewhere.This year, the Oregon Legislature passed a law requiring that a 10 percent blend be sold in the state.
The law also had a built-in trigger that Pacific Ethanol helped shape, and then capitalized on. In order for the 10 percent mandate to take effect, a bio-fuel production plant had to be built in the state, generating at least 40 million gallons.
In October, Pacific Ethanol opened the first ethanol plant in Oregon. Production capacity: 40 million gallons.
"It might look like it happened magically, but there was a lot of planning involved," said Tom Koehler, vice president for public policy at Pacific Ethanol. "We assumed some risk by being the first to build in Oregon."
Pacific Ethanol also convinced the Oregon government to help with construction costs. By declaring part of its facility as a "waste treatment" plant, they were able to secure tax breaks worth more than $6 million.
To qualify, the waste material must be "useless, unwanted," under federal law. In fact, the treatment simply removes moisture from the corn byproduct that can then be sold to ranchers and dairy farmers as feed. The corn feed, Jones said, accounts for 25 to 35 percent of Pacific Ethanol's profits....
Trending Topics
Ethanol is more expensive to produce than gasoline, and contains less energy per gallon, so it definitely does not put money in the consumer's pocket.
The 10% mixture requires futher refining, at a cost of ~2% gasoline volume.
Why do you say that it's cleaner burning?
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 930
Likes: 2
We have 10% Ethanol here. MPG goes down a touch, but thats about it (1-2mpg). There are a few places here that sell non 10% for off road vehicles and classic cars. I seek out those places and fill up all my cars when I can. The MPG being a little higher and oddly enough the sound of the engine is just nicer. I really noticed it for my motorcycle. Non10% was growlier... (is that a word?)
It won't hurt anything. We've been running it here for years. Could be 10-15 years now or even more.
It won't hurt anything. We've been running it here for years. Could be 10-15 years now or even more.
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 8
From: Norfolk, VA
So, if you use gas from Shell, Chevon, Phillips, Conoco, Texaco, or any of a dozen other manufacturers, it's got at least 8% ethanol in it already, whether it says so on the pump or not, and whether or not you're in Oregon.
Ethanol is more expensive to produce than gasoline, and contains less energy per gallon, so it definitely does not put money in the consumer's pocket.
The 10% mixture requires futher refining, at a cost of ~2% gasoline volume.
Why do you say that it's cleaner burning?
The 10% mixture requires futher refining, at a cost of ~2% gasoline volume.
Why do you say that it's cleaner burning?
You all bring up such good points. I feel I must apologise for bringing merely an opinion to the table and not marking it as such. I have thus edited my previous post.
5th Gear
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 680
Likes: 0
From: Brighton, MI
Ethanol gives you more power, but less efficiency. As far as emissions are concerned, you do get less "greenhouse gases" but more bad stuff like adlehydes. It's always a trade-off.
All gas around here (MI) can have up to 10% gas and not have to label the pump. There have been a ton of studies on ethanol use in cars. Most will tell you that you can go up to 20% and not affect your engine and fuel system.
Since BMW is very specific about problems caused by high ethanol being your problem, I do try to avoid it if at all possible.
All gas around here (MI) can have up to 10% gas and not have to label the pump. There have been a ton of studies on ethanol use in cars. Most will tell you that you can go up to 20% and not affect your engine and fuel system.
Since BMW is very specific about problems caused by high ethanol being your problem, I do try to avoid it if at all possible.
Thread Starter
|
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 2
From: Oregon, USA
I guess...propaganda? The consensus in Nebraska for a while was in line with my previous statement. They touted it on local TV as 'being good for farmers, the environment, and you save at the pump.' It might be rumor, I don't really know. No one here talks about it anymore.
You all bring up such good points. I feel I must apologise for bringing merely an opinion to the table and not marking it as such. I have thus edited my previous post.
You all bring up such good points. I feel I must apologise for bringing merely an opinion to the table and not marking it as such. I have thus edited my previous post.
There is lots of "press" about the benefits but not much about what is actually driving the decisions to mandate the use of ethanol.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,821
Likes: 1
From: Mililani,Hawaii
I bet that it is NO MORE than 8-10%. Not that it requires it.
Google around for the Top Tier def if you want to know for sure...
but while Ethanol has less energy density, it does have higher octane. There was an article in Hot Rod that built a hot V8 and tuned it for both gas and 85% ethanol, you'd be surprised at the power numbers. But you got less range out of the Ethanol.
Sorry, already passed the issue on and don't remember the exact numbers. But both were within a few % of the same 500+ hp numbers. The key was tuning for the mixture.
As far as an gas replacement, I think Ethanol is a bad joke. But some others think that if we can supplant ~5% of our gas consumption with the stuff, it's not that bad a deal. That's a bunch less to import, but there are economic consiquences as well.
Matt
Sorry, already passed the issue on and don't remember the exact numbers. But both were within a few % of the same 500+ hp numbers. The key was tuning for the mixture.
As far as an gas replacement, I think Ethanol is a bad joke. But some others think that if we can supplant ~5% of our gas consumption with the stuff, it's not that bad a deal. That's a bunch less to import, but there are economic consiquences as well.
Matt
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 8
From: Norfolk, VA
Here are the specific requirements for "Top Tier" gas, from the Top Tier website www.toptiergas.com: (emphasis added)
1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited.
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:
1) Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
2) Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
3) Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics.
4) Contain no less than 48 mg/kg sulfur. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
5) Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290°F.
6) Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.
1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited.
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:
1) Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
2) Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
3) Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics.
4) Contain no less than 48 mg/kg sulfur. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
5) Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290°F.
6) Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.
[FONT=MiniThesis-Regular][SIZE=1]
If "up to and including 10% ethanol" is okay, I doubt 85% or 90% is okay by their wording.
I tried a search and didn't find the thread I was looking for, but I seem to remember a while back someone had put E85 in their MINI, had problems and were told that MINI wouldn't fix it under warranty because the person used gas that was above 10% enthanol.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
From the owners manual to my 2005 Cooper Cabrio:
Fuels containing up to and including
10 % ethanol or other oxygenates with
up to 2.8 % oxygen by weight, that is, 15 %
MTBE or 3% methanol plus an equivalent
amount of co-solvent, will not void the
applicable warranties with respect to
defects in materials or workmanship.Fuels containing up to and including
10 % ethanol or other oxygenates with
up to 2.8 % oxygen by weight, that is, 15 %
MTBE or 3% methanol plus an equivalent
amount of co-solvent, will not void the
applicable warranties with respect to
If "up to and including 10% ethanol" is okay, I doubt 85% or 90% is okay by their wording.
I tried a search and didn't find the thread I was looking for, but I seem to remember a while back someone had put E85 in their MINI, had problems and were told that MINI wouldn't fix it under warranty because the person used gas that was above 10% enthanol.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
Not surprised...
to run 85% ethanol, you NEED to be tuned for it. That means larger injectors, and more rich A/F target ratios. Running E85 without the tune (like Flex Fuel cars can do) would be running very, very lean. (I don't know if it's blow a hole in your piston lean though). Combine that with BMW/Minis tendance to claim voided warranties if you look at the car cross-eyed, and you have lots of out of pocket expense.
Matt
Matt
The only environmental good thing about ethanol is the substitution for MTBE that endangers our water supplies.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,821
Likes: 1
From: Mililani,Hawaii
quite shocking as I thought top tier only deal with the detergent additives until I did a little more research on ethanol and found that it has some cleaning properties.
I also wonder why the requirement that the fuel contain sulphur..
4th Gear
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 350
Likes: 4
From: Westminster, CO
We have it here in Colorado have for years 10%. I dont notice any difference personally. As for Ethanol being crap..that is really subjective. You can really advance the timing running E85 in your car. You think Race Gas is addictive..this stuff blows it away if you can tune your car to run on it....113 RON.
In fact, the Koenigsegg CCXR put down 25% more HP running on E85 then Koenigsegg CCX running on 95 RON dino fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_CCX#CCXR
And yes you do loose fuel effciency..but it normally is cheaper per gallon and you are not supporting the Middle Eastern Kings & OPEC!
In fact, the Koenigsegg CCXR put down 25% more HP running on E85 then Koenigsegg CCX running on 95 RON dino fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_CCX#CCXR
And yes you do loose fuel effciency..but it normally is cheaper per gallon and you are not supporting the Middle Eastern Kings & OPEC!
Last edited by cpayne; Dec 8, 2007 at 03:22 PM.