The GTi has been out for about a year in Europe and all of the reviews say that it is a return to its roots for the original hot hatch. In a comparison, it beat the Cooper S in the 1/4 mile and bested it by a full 1 second around the track. On top of this it gets about the same mpg, has more cargo room, and is close in price.
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=100993

The new Civic hasn't had as much exposure as the GTi, but the initial reports are that the new Si is a great drive. It has 200 hp, gets 0-60 done in under 7 second, and for the first time in memory, doesn't look completely hideous. It's also going to cost a lot less than a Cooper S, and since it isn't supercharged, the insurance will be cheaper as well.
http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000080056745/

Do you guys see either of these cars as more attractive or a better value over the Cooper S? I've owned five GTi's--changing sides in 2004 to the Mini--and have never been a fan of the Civic. However, both these new models got me thinking. The Cooper S is fun, but there's a serious lack of foundational power, and these two cars could bring in more fun for less money. So barring badge snobbery--what do you think of these cars next to our car?

 

For sure! The Mini will still have better cornering ability (it is a bit lighter than those 2, even in S form, and the wheels are right at the corners) and perhaps looks better than those.

If you look at it mechanically, the new Civic Si and GTi sure kicks butt for that price!

Would I buy a civic Si instead of a Mini Coooper (just about the same price) if it was avalible when I was buying a car? Possibly.

Honestly tho, more power doesn't mean much to me, however, the honda 6 speed gear box is awesome, and the LSD is nice, plus hondas are so damn reliable.

 

i'd not touch the civic unless mugen was involved in the development.... ive driven the current SI and it just doesn't invoke ANY emotion... the only saving grace for it was the seats, and the lovely box

as for the GTI, it maybe something i want soon, i'd take it in blue, with the brilliant DSG please

 

definitely not that Civic (looks like a Saturn), but maybe the GTI if it was
hopped up or a R32 version.

but i bought the MCS not only for its handling and performance
characteristics but for its smallness and fun comical character.

the GTI and Civic looks too practical and bland...like your
ordinary commuter car. if looking for a practical car, i'll get
something else...like a A3 wagon.

 

I too am a long time VW guy, but the car that made me stray was a first gen Miata. And these exact two cars are what is holding off my order for an 06. Granted I'm 95% sure I'll be driving an 06 MCS-especially since the SCCA made the right decision regarding classing.

But. . . Well. Damn, those cars look good enough for me to go test drive and terrorize a salesperson.

(Bring a helmet to a test drive. They won't forget you.)

I think the more direct comparison is the Civic since they're offering a LSD, although if VW continues it's current trend of turbo tuning the GTI should offer a more linear (more MCS) power delivery.

The GTI will undoubtably have the better interior appointments, not sure where that weighs in or not. And the DSG is intriquing.

Like I said, I'm fairly set on the MCS, but I intend to keep the next car for quite some time (unless it's the Civic) so I plan on researching.

Having said all that, Kenchen is on to something. There's something future classic about this generation MINI. Maybe it's the Stephenson design, unmolested by pedestrian impact safety regs? Maybe it's the fact that it's been such a surprise? Maybe it's the fact that BMW put so much into it, that it's a phenomenal value?

It's probably the marketing.

Regardless, it's only good to have these choices in the market.

 

Honestly I wouldn't touch either of those cars until they were a few years old because of the resale, regardless of how cool they are. I saw an 02 GTI on craigslist of the other day for $9k. 02 MCS, $22k.

If you like the Civic/GTI, buy an 06 MCS, drive it for 2 years, sell it for a 2k loss, buy the Civic/GTI for $10k and save a bunch of money.

 

I will definetely add the new R36 to my collection, am I going to sell the MCS? God, who knows, keep in mind at that time the new 07 MCS Turbo is going to be available too. But would not care for the GTI over MCS, knowing that it is better than my car. Berk

 

on a local sport compact board, the new si was dyno'd at 207 whp, no i am not kidding, this was a preproduction model though.

 

Just test drive the new Civic EX week ago.. I can say it is far better than last time I drove the current gen Si. The interior is up to VW standard... doesn't look cheap, and I found the trunk is all covered with lining. The split dash looks cool, however I really don't like the digital speedometer. And the handling is really good for a EX, (I am not talking about Si since it is not available yet) some body rolls but not a lot. so I expect the Si will have more aggressive suspension set up and will improved the handling a bit.

 

Helluva point Early.

 

Granted that is true for the VW, but Honda's, including Civics, hold their resale extremely well. Maybe not as good as MINI, because of the incredibly low supply, but for a very high selling car, its a good one.

 

I keep reading "Best In Class Handling" about the Civic Si. I am not sure if the Mini falls in the same class as the Si, but if it does, does that mean that the Si is potentially better handling than the Mini?

Tell me it aint so!!!

 

Please keep 1 thing in mind, the Mini had already been around for over 4 years, so even if the new SI has better handling, they can only carry the flag till 2007 MINI shows up.

 

Assuming the new rear suspension in the 07 doesn't compromise handling in the name of higher profit margins for BMW. . .

 

Not having driven the Civic, I can't see how it can be better handling than the Mini. My MC is super light, no options, sports suspension. The Si weighs at least 500 more lbs in my estimation and should be quite a bit softer sprung to appeal to a larger audience (if the MC w/ SS+ was any harsher, I don't think people would be opting for it). Though the MC does not have an LSD.

Has anyone driven the Si? How does it really handle?

 

MC isn't super light, when you compare with Corolla, Civic, xA, xB.... Our MC weight at least 2500lb. and the new Civic coupe weight around 2500lb to 2700lb.. If you say power to weight ratio, probably the same. The difference is from MINI's wheel base and suspension design.

 

Barebones MC weighs in at around 2350 according to a bunch of magazines. The last article i read about the Si said it weighed in at 2877lbs - thats around 500lbs difference. 3 passengers.

Furthermore, the wheels on the Civic are 17" and I highly doubt they put on very light wheels on from the factory. Most MCS with 17" wheels handle much worse than 16". If the same is true for the Si, the big wheels can be a major disadvantage.

 

I just want to clearify... from MINI USA's web site and Honda NA's web site... MC weight 25xxlbs. and Civic coupe weight range from 25xxlbs to 27xxlbs.
Also weight have an effect on handling but not huge.. otherwise you will doubt how well a 4xxxlbs M5 or 38xxxlbs S4 handle. Suspension component, wheel base have a significan factor on handling rather then just weight.

 

The Si weighs much more than the Civic coupe. It is by far the heaviest Coupe and the article i read online said 2877lbs exactly with 17inch wheels.

Weight makes a big difference, especially in transitions. The M5 sticks to the ground and holds a turn, but that doesn't make it a good handling car cause its pretty week at transitions according to a Roundel review. Nor is it a good handling car by any sports car standards at lower speeds. There is a reason why the 40K Lotus Elise is a better handling car according to just about any auto authority than cars 4 and 5 times its price. It is at least 1000lbs lighter than its competitors.

 

I don't think it's really fair to compare the MC to the Si. IMHO MCS to Si makes more sense between the product lines.

Weight wise there's only 200lbs between the MCS and the Si.

I'd like to find out more about how much adjustment is available in the alignment on the Si. If it's not as camber challenged as the MC(s) that could be enought to negate the weight difference.

Regardless, it's still a MINI for me. It's the difference between a car I'll keep (MINI) and one I'll want to get rid of in a couple of years (Honda).

 

I definitely agree with the camber statement. I think a MC(S) with 1.5 or 2 degrees of negative camber upfront will be a much better handling car, especially in longer sweeping turns.

And yes, the MCS and Si are a much better comparison as a whole package, but not when we are talking strictly handling. A barebones MC with SS+ is without a question a better handler than an MCS with extra weight, heavy 16" wheels and crappy runflats.

 

I too came from a GTI to my MCS (Golf IV VR6 version). I won't be going back to VW as long as BMW continues to make vehicles that handle like my MINI. While I liked the comfort and quality of my GTI, the MCS is just as enjoyable, but in areas that really matter to me like turn in, autocrossing, and that supercharger whine is reason alone to prefer the MINI. As for Hondas, I guess I'm fortunate in that they don't fit me very well (long torso), so I've never seriously considered owning one.

 

I just read a review for the Si by Grassroots Motorsports. They definitely liked the car and said it handled really well in both autox and track. The weight of the car is 2900lbs. The test car was equiped with the optional summer tires, which GRM also liked quite a bit. They mentioned that in stock form the Si has no negative camber upfront, but who knows if you can get more out of it with a simple alignment.

GRM guessed that the Si would fall in G class for autocross, the same class that the MCS is. They predicted that it would be quite competitive with the MCS.

They didn't spend too much time raving about the handling characteristics of the Civic, but they did really like the LSD which would gladly pull the car around corners without much inside wheel spin and understeer.

Road and Track has the Si with all seasons going through their slalom 1mph faster than a stock (non SS+) MC with dunlop snow tires on it. I think the MC with SS+ and decent tires will have a slight handling advantage over the Si, but with all that extra power and LSD the Si is too much car for the MC to keep up with.

 

So while the seats will be different in the Si, the interior is almost identical between the two. I didn't drive the car as it was an auto and the powertrain differences between the EX and Si trims are enought to make it seem pointless. With that out of the way:

It was pretty comfortable actually, which is s first for Honda and me. We typically don't get along (me=6'2"). And that's with a sunroof. Without a doubt with sunroof the Si has more headroom for me than a Cooper with a sunroof.

This is a moot point, since my Cooper S spec doesn't include a sunroof. :P

That's the good news for the Si.

The maybe not good news is that the dashboard/steering wheel reminds me of something out of Buck Rogers.

That would take a tremendous amount of getting used to. The rake on the windshield is insane. Enough to make the dash on a New Beetle seem shallow. The pictures don't really give you a good idea of what that rake does to the interior until you sit in one.

There is something really simple about it though, speedometer and tach are impossible to miss in this layout—after getting the steering wheel adjusted. There's fuel and water temp gauges attached to the speedo as well.

I don't see this interior aging well from a design perspective. I think there's a reason why digital speedos haven't been more lasting.

Fit, finish and material choices seemed top notch, of course I only noticed that once I stopped listening for Twiggy.

I've asked the dealer to call me when they get one in next month. I'm curious if all the handling kudos are for real or if they motormag/fanboy fluff.

Having researched this on a bunch of auto boards, I have to say the MINI community is an exception to what might be the rule. You can (for the most part) have intelligent and informative conversations here. And not have random injections of how the new "c!v1c w!11 pwnt @11."

All in all, this is great time to be a car enthusiast.

 

all the current reviews of the Si have praised it all around ... except for the lack of steering feedback and responsivenes