It was a numbers matching car, and I wanted something I could drive without having to worry about blowing up the motor and killing it's value, and I was made an offer I couldn't refuse. I got this in it's place:



which was also fun........

 

I don't agree. It's not the same company. It's an inefficient, wasteful company run by buffoons with zero vision. I think if they do recover (which I don't expect), they'll just go back to their bad ways and inferior vehicles.

But if you're so loyal, you can pay my share of the taxes to bail them out because I sure don't want to. The muscle car legacy is certainly not a good reason to burden taxpayers.

 

My understanding is that we get shares of GM stock (or something equivalent), so when the company gets back on its feet and the US Gov't is allowed to put them on the market, we'll all get our money back plus more. The only way we lose is if they go bankrupt, so it's in everyone's best interest to make sure they succeed.

And yes, the musclecar industry IS a good enough reason to save them. Without that as a differentiator, they will have an even harder time competing against the sino and euro manufacturers. Muscle cars can have higher profit margins and give manufactures an alternate way to test new technologies, particularly since the typical test-bed for new technologies - high-end luxury cars - is not always appropriate for some of the upcoming performance improvements that will be needed to address the efficiency requirements of future green cars. Rich people don't always want to pay for weight reductions, while performance buyers crave them.

Besides, I like knowing that for $30K I can get a car that will not only whip the butt of a 60K 540i, but also serve as my neighbor's alarm clock when I fire it up in the morning.

 

You've traded this one away already too?

BTW - it's great to see pics with pine-straw mulch in them! I lived on 3.5 wooded acres just outside Cary for 12 years - until Fran came through!

 

I had a '57 4 door station wagon, the other end of the collectability scale from catseye's '56 Nomad.


I like the Magnum, even though there isn't that much room.

 

Yeah, well I don't want any GM stock. I'd rather keep my money for wise investments. I have little faith in a bailout helping.

Truth be told, I love seeing Corvette Racing in ALMS and Cadillac in Speed World Challenge racing. Even if they are worth saving, I'm not convinced they can be, unless they bring the business and UAW into reality, which I doubt will happen.

I'd rather have an entry level BMW 1 series than spend $30K on a $20K GM/Chrysler/Ford. So what if it takes a 540i in a straight line, because that's the extent of any butt whipping it can do to a bimmer.

 

Have you looked underneath the new Camaro? I don't think you have yet.....

 

I don't care what it has. I don't like the car and have no interest in it. For the most part these cars are about straight line speed. As far as I'm concerned the straights are just the boring bits connecting the corners.

 

my wife of 32 years stopped counting at 60 cars.....
I buy and sell, trying to make $$ at every transaction, only to dump any profit into the next car...

About 10 years ago the sportscar bug bit and I started getting out of American muscle and into VW's and then BMW's. I now am left with this:




and this:



nothing terribly exotic, but enough to keep me out of trouble......

 

Either one is ideal for going out to dinner at a fine restaurant on Friday night, and kicking butt Saturday morning at the track!

 

6ers are sweet. Nice car!

 

And unequal length A arm front suspension. You'd be shocked how fast the thing is around a track. The Camero will be fast as well. 2010 Mustang refresh is still live axle...

Matt

 

Your just avoiding the subject at hand here now.

The new Zeta platform opens up alot of doors. It now has a suspension design that rivals most European coupes and sedans. The Challenger and Mustang got the sort end of the stick, but they still have far more advanced suspensions than they used to, as far as live axles go.

Imagine the new Buick Riviera (rumored) with its 400 horsepower LSx and $35k price tag that rides like a Buick should, but will still be able to hang with the Audi RS and the BMW 5's. I would be more enthused about the American car market if more manufacturers were willing to risk a little bit in order to make good progress. I'm a Mopar guy at heart, but GM seems like it has taken the initiative to make change happen.

Also, keep a look out for more American cars to become primarily RWD. Now that we have electronic aids to make crappy drivers less crapy, we can use the RWD platform that cheaper and easier to work on, while at the same time getting back to the roots of performace cars in general.

 

I think a big part of the problem is that there used to be a big dichotomy in price between the Euro and American cars when it came to performance cars - and that difference was justified in that the US products used less expensive materials and older technologies. But you got quite a bit of performance for you $$$ - and the Euro performance cars were simply priced out of reach of the everyman - at $28000, they were $5000 or $8000 more than any US counterpart - a 25 to 40% premium. I always dreamed of having a BMW, but I knew I'd have to settle something lesser.

That $5000 difference is what it costs to use a double reinforce cam drive, use soft vinyl on the dash, use 1 grade higher shocks. and other little things that add up.

But now, with 22 airbags, 1500 watt stereos, and auto-climate controls becoming the standard even on base models of ALL cars, the sales price of all cars has risen far more than simply inflation - and new financing methods have kept pace so we can afford these expensive cars. That $5000 to $8000 dollar difference is now only an extra $28 a month on a $39,000 car.

Unfortunately, we all have it stuck in our minds that US cars HAVE to have cheaper components - because they always have been. But the US automakers have been making changes, leapfrogging the Japanese and Europeans in some instances, and are just now starting to bring products to market that are kilometers ahead of where they had been in the past. But the Euro press won't even consider giving them the benefit of the doubt. And sadly, neither will so many Americans. And of course, the politicians love to sound important, so they've been making tons of noise about how bad GM, Chrysler, and Ford have been in the past without giving them credit for the work they've done in the past 3 or 4 years. It just makes for better sound bites.

It's really a shame. The garden had been pretty weedy for a while, and the gardeners finally started cleaning it up. They certainly had some crummy soils to work with - all those poorly designed union contracts, iron-belt infrastructure problems, etc. But they had made progress, including a big union agreement about health benefits recently. And using the huge profits of the SUV craze to fuel the development costs for new, smaller, higher performance cars, there are a number of flowers about to bloom. But just before their fruits could fully ripen, the drought of the gas crisis came with unheard of suddenness, and dried up all the cash flow to the big three. And at the same time, all the banks cut off credit to everyone, so they couldn't get any loans to help bridge until the new products came to market. So, just to twist the knife a little harder, people want to deny lending the gardener a watering can so he can get his plants through the last days before the fruits can be harvested - they'd prefer to see them die on the vine. What haters. How sad.

Thankfully, say what you will about both the outgoing and incoming presidents, they both see the big picture and pushed (in their own ways) to get that watering can and some water to the gardeners. I just hope it's not too little too late.

 

Totally fell behind in this thread....

Lots to be said...back to the topic... Everyone has valid points...however???

Is the new Camaro worth the loot? For fun, YUP. is it to late for GM on this late muscle revival, maybe. I will still stand by yes on the Camaro end.

In terms of the industry....give it 6 months everything will balance out. This is a car forum so let talk cars!!! Sorry not to chop it short, I have plenty of opinions on the whole industry/economy.... I just like talking about the design and looks of cars more.

 

I think my mom really wants me to trade the MINI for the Camaro, she absolutely loves it. I personally like the v6, high tech engine, lighter than the SS, much cheaper and better mileage and it will still do 0-60 in the low 6's (supposedly). I harbor no grudge against GM (well except the Cobalt and the Aveo) so the fact the Camaro is made by GM doesnt bother me in the slightest.


Otherwise I suppose there is always the s2000.