Ah, What the hell... Go for it. If it's what you want.

 

Yeah, there's no Mini that can realistically compete with 400 HP. If that's what you want, then the Camaro is the car for you and the Mini isn't.

 

Go for it!

 

No retro-pony car for me. MINIs are the only cars out there right now which interest me. Also, I'm not a US automaker fan.

 

The SS Camaro with the 422 hp LS3 will have a base MSRP of $30,992 including Brembos, 20" wheels, limited slip, oil and trans coolers. A loaded with every option convertible might be 40k. Certainly not $45k... The Vette starts in the mid 40's... The V6 and V8 will be available at the same time, no delayed launches. 300 hp V6's will have an MSRP of $22,995.

A low speed autocross course with tight turns would certainly favor a Mini JCW, but any more typical road courses would allow the new Camaro to easily walk away. Nurburgring, for example, has the 2010 Camaro SS running 8:20, or about the same as a E36 and E46 BMW M3, and quicker than a Subaru STI, a Lotus Exige, Z3 M coupe, Boxster S, S2000 and many others. I don't think people here would be so quick to say their Mini (in stock form) is better in the twisties than any of those cars. But, of course, a GM Camaro can't ever possibly be a decent handling vehicle to all of the biased blokes out there, even though the Mini Works ran a 8:55. A regular MCS ran 9:31.
http://www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html


So Rocky,
You may want to be careful in choosing which tracks you run on so you don't end up eating your words...

 

GM bonds are trading as if the company won't make it to 2010 so it may be a moot question.

sincerely yours,
dumb bond holder

 

... and 3800lb


... and for $10k less, you can run 8:20's in a Cobalt SS w/ Brembos, LSD, etc.


I agree with your point that people ASSUME that Pony cars can't handle, but there's only so much you can do with these chubby new pony cars with a budget of $25-35k.

The reason I don't own a new pony car yet is not because I don't like them in general, or that they don't offer good bang-for-the-buck (you can buy a new Mustang GT for $21k), it's because I can't bring myself to buy such ridiculously overweight "performance cars." They make it work to some extent with extra power, but if it takes you HUGE brakes, an LS3, etc, just to hang with a Cobalt SS on the road course, you should know it's time for a diet.

Part of that is simply because the Cobalt is a great performance buy, but imagine that same Camaro at 3200lb or something. It just seems like the latest pony cars have gotten out of control weight-wise, and after driving my 2700lb Notchback Foxbody Mustang for a while, I've grown to love the relatively light weight and be put off by the fat and flashy new Mustang/Camaro/Challenger.... as evidenced by me buying a regular MINI for the same price as a new Mustang GT.

 

I am actually leaning toward the new Nissan 370Z. This is the fastest production Z ever with some pretty solid specs according to Motortrend:

0 to 60 In 4.7 sec. and the Quarter Mile (1/4 mile) in 13.3 sec. at 105.7 MPH
Also looking at .99g on the skidpad.

 

Blainestang: I agree with you completely about the disappointing weight gain of the pony cars... It takes that much more of everything to get a porker to perform well in all aspects, whereas a lighter vehicle is dynamically more effective. They have turned more into "Sports Touring Cars" instead of pony cars...

 

Please, don't warp history by citing error.
I'm no fan of GM, but I can't let this go: GM did not get any bailout money in 1980. It was only Chrysler.

There, I feel better now.

 

Yeah, I honestly like a lot of things about all the new "pony cars", but they're ALL too heavy. I mean, the Challenger is over 4000lb!

 

Sorry, my mistake.

Doesn't change the fact that the government has bailed out a large auto manufacturer before. Don't get me wrong, tho: I'd rather my tax dollars go to a manufacturer that employs people to make things, than a bank so they can continue to profit by merely shifting money around.

 

And Chrysler paid that money back a few years later. Not sure what that proves, as I'm not convinced GM will be able to do the same should it get a loan.

 

NO.
Good looking for a retread, I like the orange paint, don't know about the Hot Wheels red-line tires.

 

I wouldn't trade my MINI for it, but I will want a Camaro.

Why?

Nothing beats the sensation you get flooring a car with a big V8. And nothing lets you drift-steer through a corner like a RWD.

At the same time I bought the MINI, I bought a convertible 350Z. And I sold my Corvette. I figured between the tossability of the MINI and the convertible-ness of the 350Z, I'd forget about the Corvette.

But neither fills the gap. The MINI is fun in the slaloms, but I miss power-sliding around corners. The 350Z lets me control the back end, but I miss the deep rumble that only a V8 can make. And I REALLY miss powering hard up the twisty mountain roads of Bear Mountain - neither car can do it like the Chevy did.

But why the Camaro? Why not a Challenger, or Mustang, or another Corvette? Three letters: IRS. No, not the tax auditors - I mean Independent Rear Suspension. The Camaro will be the first reasonably priced V8 with a real IRS rear end - which makes a big difference in handling (The Corvette runs roughly $20K more for the same options). The IRS is part of the reason the Corvette could do so well on the Bear Mtn twisties, and I expect it will give the Camaro a leg up on the muscle cars too. Sure it will weigh more than the Corvette did, but the power-to-weight ratio will still be pretty phenomenal, especially the SS model - it will definately kick Mustang *ss. It might even be a success in Europe, with the IRS and it's 27 MPG 300 HP V6.

No, I won't get rid of the MINI - but I might just replace the 350Z with a Camaro when the convertible version is available.

[rant]
Now is such a wrong time for the government to be slapping GM down. They've been pumping millions into developing the Volt and have it near production ready. They have big-power high-mpg cars ready to roll into showrooms, and they've proven they can build solid, reliable cars with the Malibu and Cobalt. So they used SUV's and Trucks as cash cows to pull in the $$$ so they could fund research into the cars they are just about to offer. That sounds like good management to me. The fact that the gas crunch hit so quickly and with such ferocity is all that messed up their timetables.

Heck, it's not just the US car industry either. France has already approved their bailouts to Renault and Peugot. Germany will likely do the same (but to a lesser extent) for some of its automakers. And Italy has been funding Fiat (who also make Ferrari) for the past 5+ years! Cars are about the only big-ticket production-centric product with a built in replacement requirement to keep it going - and therefore an important part of keeping the economy moving. And even at that, the average lifespan of an auto has nearly doubled over the last 20 years, making it that much harder to adapt the business model. We really need to get our lawmakers to quit grandstanding for the cameras and do what's right for the country and for the car-buying public as well.

[/rant]

 

The Mustang Cobra put an IRS with a 320hp V8... 10 years ago... for ~$28k.

Although, I have a feeling that you added the word "real" to "disqualify" the Mustang's IRS, though.

Fact is, all cars with demographics as broad as the Mustang or Camaro have to make a few compromises... such as a live axle or several hundred pounds of extra weight.

 

i wonder if camaro would be one of the first cars to get dropped from
the GM lineup due to the economy and their current financial crisis.

 

Well, they already cancelled the Z28 (w/ ZR1/CTS-V motor), so I could see it happening if the first year or two of sales aren't looking good for long-term profitability.

 

I dig the new camaro a LOT, but I don't think I'd trade in the Mini or my C5 Z for it. I guess it all depends on what a certain person is looking for. Personally I think GM is a little late on the whole muscle revival. Its a tough market out there and I think they missed the boat. just my .02

 

For a car like that, I would rather have a Porshe myself.


As for the Cobalt, that is one peice of crap car! Thats the other car I test drove before special ordering Clown. It was the sport version of the Cobalt. The engine made the car fly so fast you didn't even know it till after the fact which was nice but the breaks felt like you were driving a Delta 88! Not very good breaks for a small car! The handling wasn't as impressive as the cooper either. The car was very BLAH! The only thing cool about the Cobalt is that it has a built in sub woofer.

A coworker is leasing a Cobalt and she hates it. She talks badly about it every chance she gets. This reminds me of my shitty Nissan Altima. I'm very happy I don't have my Altima anymore and I'm even happier I bought Clown and not a Cobalt.

 

You are SO right about the late to the party part. They started concepting the Camaro around the middle of the last recession (post 9/11) and won't get it out until the middle of this one. Same was true of the HHR. Heck, go back to the 70's and you get the Chevette which was a late clone of the Omni (which of course was a fairly quickly created clone of the first Golfs).

If there is one thing GM really needs to concentrate on, it's improving their concept-to-market times. Somehow, Chrysler has been able to introduce new designs every other year and keep their promise to actually deliver them. Heck, even Ford turned the Flex concept from paper to pavement in less time than it took GM to get the Camaro out.

Big picture-wise, in an ideal world, GM would spin off Pontiac as a true performance division, with limited production borrowing form the corporate parts bin to create Alfa-Romeo type cars (Alfa is Fiat's sport division, borrowing knowledge and parts from Fiat, Maserati, and Ferarri) - although hopefully with Japanese/American quality levels (Alfas' quality is not much better than Fiats in many cases). 3 or 4 unique models not available in the other marques (This is where GM's Tesla-killer would come from), plus the exclusive on highest performance versions of all standard GM models. There would be no base models to sully the marque's reputation. All would be high performance, high quality - none with lower performance than what you can get in the SS or V versions of the Chevy and Cadillac lines - The Pontiac line would be the no-expenses spared version of any car. Volumes would be quite low, but margins could remain high.

Cadillac can create the BMW fighters (something GM originally had planned for Pontiac, but the names and legacies just don't line up), while Buick create pure luxury for the masses, and Chevy makes cars and trucks for the everyman. They can keep GMC in the wings with luxury versions of the trucks in case there is ever a resurgence in the demand for high-end, but I think it makes just as much sense to make them part of Buick.

Do I want a new Camaro? Yup - I want that big V8 and IRS. Hopefully I can find one in Hugger Orange too. I still believe GM can and will continue to make cars. But I think I'll wait until I can buy a used one. I've always had an aversion to paying for all that first-two-years depreciation.

 

I recently sold this



for about the same price as a new one! IMO, this is twice the car and 10x the investment.....

 

Beautiful car! It's classics like this (and the memories they hold) that make the marque so worth saving. However, a current production R56 most certainly could hand this classic its *ss on any track with more than 4 left turns. That's why I'm so happy to see GM is returning the line with everything it takes to let it hold its own against the uber-cars of the $30K world.

 

Why did you sell that?

Personally I'm not a fan of this car, but if you kept this car for this long you obviously are and so it just boggles the mind why someone like you would sell this.

 

well, things have improved just a bit in 40 years, but this car was no sloutch on the road course in it's day (and still isn't, with a decent setup):