+1 BUT losing 2.5 million jobs in one fell swoop will be devastating as well. This is quite the quandary indeed.

 

Actually the Chevy Dealer moved into a new building in the next block they were not taken over and they did not fail. For Northwest MINI this was a process in the buying this building for over a year.

With the number of MINIs in the Pacific Nortwest this is a welcome addition to much need service north of Seattle.

 

So what do you do? Sure, Nardelli should be fired, Cerberus never should have taken on an auto manufacturer not knowing the business at all. But what about all the people who have put in 10, 20, 30 years trying despite poor management to produce a quality product? Not even the union workers who believe they deserve $100k/yr for doing less than I do with little or no education. The engineers and managers who are truly innavators and hard workers.
My boyfriend will probably be out of a job the first of the year because Chrsyler won't renew his engineering service contract. The market here is flooded with talent - he'll probably have to move to find anything remotely related to his expertise or interest. Meanwhile I work for an automaker that's still selling a few cars. We'd love to lose the competition and pick up a few assets, but not at the expense of the market crashing and no one buying ANY cars. And, you know, everyone knows everyone and we all have friends and family who are unemployed or who will be soon.

 

Many of those jobs will be in Canada - where GM and Chrysler assemble many of their cars - or in Mexico - where FORD assembles many of it's cars. The greed of the Auto Worker's Union has a lot to do with this as well. Their fingerprints are all over the surge in popularity of Japanese cars - which dates back to the UAW strikes of the 1970's.

It's true that losing any of the Big 3 would be a very bad thing but why should I reward a mis-managed business with my tax dollars? We have previously given them interest-free loans and now, because of their inability to create a quality product at an affordable price, I am supposed to give them a sympathy bump?

Ain't gonna happen! If you want to find sympathy, look in the dictionary. It is located between SUCK and SYPHILLIS.

 

The UAW has had as much to do with the failure of the US auto industry as competition. During the good years the Mgt caved to union demands for expiedency and short term profits. The union burden on every big 3 car made small efficient cars unprofitable and the only way to make money was big SUV's. Now we are paying the piper.

 

To some degree, the UAW may be a very "partial" spoke in the wheel for their financial problem but in no way should shoulder the blame for the Big 3's Ultimate demise. I have "lounged" poolside in Florida with some GM Executives, and their retirement plans were, for lack of a better word....OBSCENE !

Additionally, these manufacturers would never of had any financial issues had they not lost their consumer base to the likes of; Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, BMW and MB. Instead of re-inventing themselves to keep up the the demands of the American Market, "The Big Three" lost sight of the "needs" of the consumer and instead mass produced generic 4 wheeled subpar quality automobiles bid out to specs by rental car and fleet vehicle industry.....and did so at the same time while purchasing overseas corporations and interest in Diamler, Jaguar and alike......And all those investments like Jaguar were soon Sold at a HUGE losses to FMC....

Had these same CEO and EEO's kept up, listened to the market demands, it would not matter what contracts were carved out with the UAW....

To me, they are no better than the greedy myopic executives of AIG, Fanne Mae and Mac.......and therefore, get no pass from me.

 

the buying public had a lot to do with this mess. When gas is cheap, the US consumer buys big. You can look at trends in car purchasing, and no one forced people to buy Expeditions to take the kiddies to soccer! The buying public has a long term time horizon that somewhat longer than tomorrow but probably not much past next paycheck. The number of times I've heard people say they were surprised by the rise in gas prices... Well, if I had a nickle for each one, I wouldn't be lamenting my IRAs health!

Did the big three screw the public, or did the public screw the big three? Bit of both, I'm sure...

BTW, car purchase preference in the US is a perfect example of what happens when a flawed market construct is allowed to work on its own. We buy that which isn't in our long term interest, and push the industries into making what isn't in their long term interest. Fact is, Honda and Toyota making hybrids was a speculative bet by the companies, quite a risk with thier shareholder $.

Just some stuff to think about...

Matt

 

Before we totally bash the UAW or any other union, let's just remember Europe has a much stronger union movement and their manufacturing has to carry that cost also and still compete!!
As far the big three or any business is concerned, let's look at this from our firm belief in a system of checks and balances. What would make us believe that business left to their own devices will somehow produce a better result, than if we left our government without any constraints. Intervention maybe inevitable, but let's remember who is in charge and demand controls and ownership for each dollar traded to any business!

 

A lot of the big 3's problem is the amount of money and benefits they pay their employees,coupled with cars and trucks that are not as reliable or economical as their competitors.I'm not usually in favor of bailouts as it rewards incompetance but letting the big 3 fail would have disaterous consequences for any future trust in the American economy.
Why dont the big oil companies bail out the car companies or at least give a sizeable donation from their billions in profit,also if there is a bailout the companies should show a reasonable change in policy to make sure they will have the ability to pay back whatever monies the North American tax payers are burdened with to save their sorry butts.

 

So, are there any MINI unions in Oxford, England or at parent company BMW? Do they have more influence with them than the UAW would with GM?

 

Big 3=Ugly entry level cars and not so great mileage.
I seen a used Focus SVT at a Ford dealership, stopped to take a look at it, dealer said, "You don't want that!" "Your a big guy, you need a big truck like that", pointing to a Ford F150. "This truck is you, man"

 

So how do we save the economy and jobs while punishing the guys who "caused" it?

Think about this: It's a chess game. Where we are is based on moves made 20, 30, 40 years ago. How can we undo that? Possibly by actually declaring bankruptcy, "cleaning the slate", and starting over? And what's the pain in that (huge is an understatement).

Can the jobs be "right sized" to pay what they're worth? i.e. the guy putting fenders on my next car isn't worth $100k/year to do so... underemployment is better than no employment. I don't know most of the answers, but we're having a decent reasonably intelligent conversation on it here. Maybe if we Mini owners put our heads together we can truly save the world.

 

YES, now there's a plan I can get behind!

 

Yes, European unions are strong. Labor costs are high. Hence their cars are expensive. They make profits on even the smallest "economy models". So why can't the big three do likewise? Here's the big difference. With European cars you get innovation, cutting edge technology, and quality build (witness the MINI). When GM or Ford builds a small car it is a cheap tin can. No one would ever pay $25K+ for an American small car. MINI (BMW) and many other European companies routinely market small cars selling for $25, 30, even 35K. U>S manufacturers only know one way to make profits. Add size and useless glop.

 

Excellent discussion, and I agree with many of the posters. However, this thread really isn't about MINIs any more, so I have moved it to Off Topic: Autos.

 

Must be the "Tonka toy syndrome"!!

 

It definitely won't be easy, maybe reducing work hours rather than getting rid of jobs maybe a place to start, but so far that's up to the companies and their employees.
It would also be good to have a complete list and picture of the suppliers, other companies and employees whose existence depends on the big 3. If we can't save the big 3 maybe we can find a way to redirect these industries and people into a new emerging technology. Sort of the same way we retooled industry during WWII, but maybe for the emerging green sector.

 

Anyone think the NHTSA and IIHS could help this whole situation a little by relaxing their safety standards? That would make it easier for domestic automakers to bring over their European models in a timely fashion. Afterwards the NHTSA, IIHS and European regulators could come up with one universal standard that would simplify production of global cars for all manufacturers. Seems silly to have so many different standards for auto manufacturers to comply with so they can sell cars in different markets.

 

The safety standard issue is an interesting point!! I agree a single universal standard would go a long way into resoving some of the issues out there. I am fairly sure the Europeans do not consider their standard less than ours and we seem to think ours is stricter.
The main problem I see, might be how and what entity would have jurisdiction and enforcement capability.

 

These days we all hear the senseless clammering of people saying "We NEED to follow the lead of other mainstream countries," "America has it ALL wrong and we should cow down to the United Nations......"

IF that is the case, then America should then follow the UNECE standards set fourth in Europe and other nations for auto manufacturing.....

The United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) has excellent standards shared with several nations worldwide to whom regulate equipment on cars in order to facilitate trade of vehicles.

But our United States is not part of the UNECE and has very different standards........Yet, these same auto manufacturers have no legal or moral issues manufacturing them under UNECE standards and selling them abroad either......

So unfortunately for us, cars like the MINI Cooper D ( Diesel ) one of the most fuel efficient cars in the world, will most likely never be sold/shipped in America......

 

It's funny how we help setup and promote the development of the UN and the World Court, and then when it comes down to living under it, we tend to say - No!!

The MINI Cooper D was one of the cars I was thinking about!!

I don't think reasonable re-evaluation and searching for common ground is necessarily "cowing down", but rather a good starting point!

The UN is a good starting point, but as an entity it is not perfect and will eventually need to be modified to work more fairly.

 

Bloody Hell, If they get anything, then ALL the Big 3 EEO and CEO's shoulld turn in their company owned Limo's, mansions here and abroad, yachts here and abroad, their private GS-5's ! Liquidate ALL thier company and private assets, and put these Idiots on the lecture circuit to explain how they were able to run a Big Business into the Ground......

Then restructure their companies, pink slip some more white collar employees, and bring back some UAW line workers, and lets make GD Cars!

 

Sound's like a plan to me!!!!