Thanks for the input Kevin. The reason I ask for raw drivers is because im doing away with the stock deck and will have endless crossover points with up to 36db/octave slopes at hand so outboard X-overs will do little for me not to mention 31bands of L/R independent eq also T/A for good measure. Is there any chance in the future you will be able to cater to those who only want raw drivers?

 

We seem to be missing each other here. The point I'm trying to make is that having the crossovers doesn't help you without the knowledge and equipment to properly make use of them. I'll try to illustrate with more questions:

1) What crossover frequencies and slopes will you choose and why? Tell me the phase and other implications of using the higher-order slopes and the trade-off benefits for and against?

2) What are the axis angles of each of the 6 drivers (that one's easy) and what is each drivers response at that angle?

You can not design a crossover properly without answering the second part of #2 and at least understanding #1, and the equipment alone to do that would cost you more than what you'd spend on your entire system. And it would take you months to learn how to use it even if you did buy it.


There is zero chance of that - it is completely antithetical to what we do here. What you are describing is basically how the entire existing car audio world works, and we believe it is fundamentally wrong.

I'm not saying you can't design a system that sounds good doing what you are describing - like I said, it's the way the entire car audio world currently works. What I'm saying is that it isn't going to sound as good as ours, which was your original question. And you'll spend more money and more time doing it your way, all for inferior results.

 

1)I don't quite yet know what x-over points and slopes i will use as don't have the gear as the build is still in the planning stage. The x-over points and slopes will all be determined once gear is in car and the first few listens have been done.

as far as I know crossovers are used to keep each of the of the seperate components from trying to play a frequency range that would be better for another driver.

the phasing of the speakers are also an unknown variable as i dont have them here to test.

The higher order slopes are better for blending all said drivers together and also to keep speakers from breaking up and to suppress audio info thats outside of the driver's intended frequency range.

2)The axis angles of the Mid and Woofer are 0 degrees, i dont know about the tweets as of yet but i suspect they might also be 0 degrees.

I understand its gonna take time to get the system tuned and tweaked to my liking as i have done a 3-way active setup before but it was only 2-way+sub.

The cost i can already tell you its gonna be in the $3-4k as all of the components that will go in the system will be high end and thats not including the alternator, wire and connectors or damnpening materials, but cost isn't an issue.

I have to get to work anything else you need to know just post it up and I will get back to you when I can.

 

I don't want to keep running in circles here. I'm really posting here for the benefit of others reading this thread so they can appreciate the differences between our integrated systems and off-the-shelf aftermarket components. I was asking those questions hypothetically to illustrate a point that an end-user/installer doesn't have the knowledge nor the equipment to answer them.

Even the best audio and sound engineers in the world can't do this even close to as well as the computer based measurement systems we use.

We're talking about the choice of crossover slope (1st order, 2nd order, etc) and the crossover phase shift. It differs for different order slopes. If the speakers aren't minimum phase there is nothing you can do about it, but that's a different issue. Point is, if you don't even understand the question you certainly aren't going to be able to tune a system to anything even beginning to approach ours, which is what I was trying to illustrate.

No, this is something that differs based entirely upon the drivers in question and the location/environment.

Also no. There are six different axis angles in the MINI front soundstage, and not one of them is zero. Besides, it isn't the angle that is important, it is the driver RESPONSE at that angle. My point was that as an end user you have neither the knowledge nor the equipment to measure that, so you'd just be guessing with the setup you propose.

You don't need a new alternator, but it's your money.

Please, no need to respond. There isn't anything more that I can say on the subject. You asked what the differences are between our true vehicle-specific systems and the one-size-fits-all approach of traditional audio vendors, and I've done my best to answer that.

 

i really appreciate this kevin... looks like i need to rip out my knowledge base and get back to studying thanks for your time.

 

Here is a link to my R56 JCW Hardtop SoundStage with Sub install, waiting for the final instructions from Kevin on the amp placement and install… I will up-date pix daily. This is fun…. Can’t wait to hear it….

http://www.flickr.com/photos/digital...7629768965607/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/digital...7629768965607/