This is great! http://boston.mirror-image.com/newsv..._worcester.wmv

Enjoy,

Debi

 

damn sucks to be them. good video though !

 

Very interesting, Debi. Of course it could never happen on a MINI event

 

That's what they get for not using Vacucams!

 

Darn, once I was really tempted to do some cone slaloming, but that was in the middle of empty Wyoming.

 

hee hee, sucks for them.

 

On what grounds was the tape siezed? Illegal search & siezure should get the case thrown out. Guilty or not.

 

They should get the book thrown at them. They broke the law and thank god innocent motorists or costruction workers where not injured.


Stupid Kids like that RUin our motoring hobby for everyone.!!!!!

 

I agree, motor responsibly.

 

The state of Tennessee does, in fact, take an officially dim view of using traffic cones as slalom markers.

Trust me on this.

 

Yeah, and John Kerry should have won the election

 

The state probably has a provision that allows reasonable S&S for items that are within sight and related to the reason that the car was pulled over.

 

I didn't even imply that what they did was right. However, they still have constitutional rights. That is all.

 

I hear what you are saying but the camera was mounted to the roof in plain sight and obviously material to the "crime." If a person robbed a liquor store and shot somebody, would a police officer who checked the crook's gun for a spent shell be violating his rights? OK, bad analogy but I don't believe there is a privacy rights issue.

 

coming form a fellow vw enthusiast, sucks to be them

caravan smartly

 

Hm. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I see lots of holes in the state's case against the ticketed drivers in this case. In the video, I can see several cars doing things they oughtn't, but I sure as hell can't identify the drivers of those cars from that footage! I'd be surprised if at least some of those cars didn't have multiple occupants when they were stopped. If I was the driver of one of the cars in that video, I'd hire a lawyer. At the very least, the charges should be reduced from "moving violation by driver X," to "moving violation by vehicle X." This is important. It's the reason why points are not assessed against anyone's license for photo radar or red light camera tickets. Since the vehicle's owner is responsible for the car, the owner can be fined for the vehicle's "participation" in an alleged crime, just as a parent can be held liable for the actions of their minor children. (The concept that an inanimate object can somehow "participate" in a criminal act is a legal fiction used to justify property siezures for the state's profit, but that's another discussion. Do a search on "property forfeiture" if you would like to explore the topic in detail.) However, without a positive ID of the driver at the actual time the alleged offense occurred, there is not sufficient evidence to justify assessment of points against the license of the alleged driver. Even if the officer in the cruiser at the beginning of the construction zone could ID the drivers of the cars at the point where they passed by his position, he did not witness the actual occurance of the alleged violations. Therefore, (s)he cannot attest to the identity of the driver at the moment the offense occurred.

several other lessons to be learned from this incident:

1) don't hot dog in a manner that is dangerous, or even one that annoys people. 'Nuff said. And it's not just your actions that need factored in here- there are other considerations besides possibly being a hazard yourself. Remember: they'll use their cell phones, most likely while continuing to drive, in order to report you for being "unsafe."

2) if you participate in a group run, and feel you may be presented with an irresistible temptation to overexuberance, take note of where the video cameras are in the pack. Queue up behind them, if possible.

3) if you are going to be reckless enough to flagrantly violate the law and record yourself doing so, get the recording equipment out of sight before the police get to your door!

4) if you don't heed 1-3 above, keep lawyer(s) on retainer, and be ready to use them. Never voluntarily hand over your property. If you plan to record activities of a "questionable" nature, use a laptop, an inexpensive camera, and a FireWire capture device to record video directly to hard disk. And, for goodness sake, encrypt your file system! What they can't open, they cannot use against you-or anyone else, for that matter. Even if the police get a search warrant to sieze the equipment, they cannot compel you to cough up the password to your computer account, since that might incriminate you. Plus, it's a lot easier to delete a file from a PC as you pull to the shoulder than it is to try to remove and smash a video tape.

If you get stopped, and you've maybe been naughty, after you wipe anything the police might be interested in, if you don't or can't covertly stow your gear, keep recording. What you capture during the stop may be important in court. Law enforcement officials have cameras in their cars to record us. Turnabout is fair play! It also gives a plausible reason for having the gear out. You got pulled over for reasons unknown, so you got the camera out to protect yourself as a citizen by recording the traffic stop, right?

OK- what if worst has happened? Your indiscreet avi file is still on your laptop, and the police have your gear. They want to examine the files on it, and request that you provide the password for your user account. Do not assist them in this endeavor. Exercise your right to remain silent. The 5th amendment argument supporting your rights to do so is thus: if you divulge the password needed to decrypt the files, your knowlege of the password may be construed as prima facie evidence that you created the files encrypted using that password, as opposed to any other user of that computer. You therefore cannot be forced to give up the password, since the act of furnishing the password may be one of self-incrimination.

Even without a password, the state may have access to the resources necessary to break your file encryption, but breaking any decent encryption scheme is not cheap, and takes time. Depending on the circumstances, the prosecutor will most likely decide that cracking the file is not worth the effort vs. the return. Now, as a return jab for your refusal to help them convict you, the prosecutor's office may suspend their investigation of the case and lock up your stuff in their evidence room until the statute of limitations on the alleged offense expires. So, if you do go this route, use an old beater laptop to do your in-car capture, since you might not see it again for a long time- if ever! That said, I'm sure that the cost of an old used laptop is less than the potential penalties and insurance rate hike that could result from a conviction if the recorded file was readable by the state, and contained the evidence the state claims it does...

...I may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean no one is out to get me!

 

Indy, you always have posts of the highest quality I have ever had the pleasure to read.

-mike

 

Thanks for the compliment!

Red Bull deserves the credit for keeping me on the soap box after midnight.

 

One more bit of file safeguarding fun for the Windows-using paranoid:

1) create a temp directory (encrypted, of course) to save your recording-in-progress files.

2) then, create a simple script (a .bat file should suffice) that launches the disk-wiping utility on your laptop (one of the common "file shredder" utilities on the market should do) and directs it to wipe any files in said temp directory. Set the program to run in silent mode, if possible. If you really want points for style, make your script lock the workstation too. This buys more time for the file wipe utility to work, and it annoys the unathorized user to no end- as you'll see below.

3) save this script in the "All Users" startup group. Be sure to give it a clever name, such as "Fawn_Hall.bat" or "Enron.vbs."

4) if you have anything stored in the temp directory that you want to keep, remember to hold down the <shift> key each time you log on. This will prevent the script from running. With any luck, if any unathorized party does manage to log in to your PC, they won't do this, and the magic eraser does its thing! "What evidence, your honor?"

Now, if someone coerces your account password out of you, with a little luck, when they log in, the files get wiped, or at least fairly well damaged before the disk-wiper process can be killed!

 

indigomini, your legal arguments have holes large enough to drive a VW through, but this isn't the proper forum for a discussion of the finer points of the law. A few points I'd like to make:

1. Don't drive like this: It's stupid.
2. Don't record your own illegal actions (or those of your friends, unless you intend to provide the cops with evidence). How stupid can you get?
3. If you must **** off a cop by arguing the law at the side of the road, be prepared to go to jail now.
4. If you drive like this and get caught, hire a lawyer.
5. Don't drive like this: It's stupid. If you do, you deserve worse than these kids will likely get.

-- Lee

 

As an individual who is admittedly without benefit of a formal education in law, I'm sure there are quite a few things I've neglected to take into account. My post was an off-the-cuff reaction to the fact that the police siezed the camera and the tape, and (presumably) released the footage before the accused drivers have had their opportunity to a trial. That newcast was probably seen by quite a few people in the jurisdiction where the event occurred. I question the court's ability to seat an impartial jury under the circumstances. Even if all my arguments are unsound, the irresponsibility evidenced by the release of this tape remains.

I do not dispute this. In fact, I stated as much- just not so directly. The obviousness of it is such that I thought no further emphasis was needed, especially in light of the posts that preceeded mine. See item (1), paragraph 2 of my first post to this thread. I'll still stand by my suspicion that at least some of the other motorists reporting the event were juggling their cell phone and their steering wheel.

No doubt. However, an individual willing to ignore item (1) is also possibly willing to ignore reason with regard to recording their "jackass moment" for posterity. Better to stay behind such individuals, whether or not you are inclined to similar behaviour- as per (2.)

My original post did not advocate arguing with police on the roadside, or anywhere else. It is possible to decline to speak to an agent of the state without advice of counsel, and do so in a respectful, non-offensive manner.

I witnessed once, as a juvenile, what can result from arguing with an officer. It was a harsh lesson, and one that I took to heart. For the safety of everyone at the scene, a police officer will do what (s)he believes is necessary to maintain control of the situation. Jail now is about the least unpleasant outcome of challenging the authority of a peace officer.

Once again, I wholeheartedly agree. I explicitly recommended doing so.

I apologize if my comments have been construed as an endorsement of the actions depicted in the video. I should have been blunt about that from the start, but as I said above, I had not thought it necessary to belabor something so obvious. In the DC metro area, there have been numerous recent fatalities involving young drivers and reckless behavior. Although I question the propriety of the release of the videotaped material from the car camera, perhaps the public attention on those involved will shame them into rethinking their actions before they go to court. This is especially important, as I suspect that you are correct, insofar as what the court levies upon them will probably not have much impact on them.

I fervently hope that those who participate in such activities on our public highways outgrow their illusions of immortality before it's too late.

Given that the circumstances of this situation, though deplorable, are becoming disturbingly common, what was unusual and caught my interest about this case is how it was publicized, both by the media, and by the police. In a society where an ever-increasing percentage of our lives is subject to surveillance and recording, the effect of the release of this material cannot be ignored. Since "leaks" of such material seem commonplace today, it seems to me that for those under the camera's eye, one of the best ways to keep the "water off the floor" is to "empty the glass yourself before it can be knocked over." However, as you have pointed out, this thread was not started for the purpose of discussing the social ramifications of search and siezure law, responsible news reporting, or personal data protection, so I will drop this line of conversation in deference to the original topic.

Regards,
Brian

 

It was really quite interesting to see them all on the side of the road like that. I pass that stretch of highway during my daily commute and though I did not see them going through the cones, I did see them all pulled over that day. I can admit to having thought about going through the cones as they did more than once, but I have yet to realize it as it's not exactly legal. They got caught doing what they shouldn't have been doing, and I guess that's all there is to it.

 

The whole incident certainly makes you take pause at the way we (MINI owner/drivers) behave behind the wheel. How embarrassing and foolish (probably no shame though ) they must have felt all sitting on the side of the road.

Most (if not all ) of us have participated in one or more MINI rallies, Dragon events, etc. While we may not have blatantly disregarded the law as they have, I can recall a few times that some maneuvers may have been questionable.

Certainly during club organized events, we must remain mindful of how we portray the club when we are driving on the road.

Obviously, in the end, we are all accountable for our own individual actions.

 

I have found that since our MINI came home, I am a much better driver, in terms of road courtesy, than I was with previous cars. The friendliness of the car rubbed off on me right away. Settling behind the wheel of a MINI makes one want to always act in a manner worthy of the car's heritage. I am more considerate and relaxed on the road, and always mindful of how my driving will reflect upon all of us, as a community. The MINI inspires this in a manner that no other car can.

The MINI's cultural status sets a standard to live up to. Living with this car carries a weight of responsibility that exceeds what MINI USA's ad campagns suggest.

 

What was that VW kid (in the black Golf) with the baseball cap on smoking in the video interview? Could explain some of their actions.