993 vs. MCS on track
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2005
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Originally Posted by MCLeonard
Wow, so much drama! I figured we are on a MINI forum and somebody posts up a video of a MINI shoveling a Porsche and catching a BMW, so lets root for the MINI and knock on the other guys a little. If I had known that the "instructors" were going to invade our virtual sportsbar and school us I would have paid more attention. At least I don't feel so bad for holding on to my sterotypes of BMW drivers. 
Anyway thanks for the refresher. It has been a long time since I had rear drive, rear engine explained to me, when my father took me for my first ride in his 911S in 1966 and since I first saw Porsches racing other cars at the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring that same year. Now if you could explain those wing things on Jim Halls' Chaparral I would be really impressed. :smile:
Having been on the track with the MINI several times and seen other racing MINIs I have a pretty good idea of what they are all about. The reason I thought that the Porsche should let the MINI by is because the MINI was all over him and he was spending so much time looking over his shoulder and then changing his line. In the club that I race with blocking isn't allowed and that is what this looked like. I don't think a driver should have to be that defensive in a club race.
The reason I thought it was just a trackday is because both cars kept changing their lines midcorner and bobbling all over the place and the cars didn't seem to be fully race prepared, as is confirmed by the later pictures. Sorry if I didn't recognise your superior skill levels from this video. This weekend I am off the the Montery Historics, where my brother has raced everything from a Ford GT40 to a Porsche 908/3. I will try and pay attention and try to learn to pick out the good drivers better. Although having developed an eye for driving skill while watching Niki Lauda come up through the ranks, when I worked for a documentry film company following F1, I think I can safely say that you guys should not hold your breath.
Later it was mentioned that this was just an exibition race and only "egos" were at stake. Funny how the egos are the biggest at the lowest levels and reduce in proportion as skill level increases. Having met German BWM racing greats Hans Stuck and Joachim Mass, in the mid-seventies when they got in to F1, I can tell you that the egos at that level are well in check and they are were the nicest guys.
I noticed in the various posts that we have two explainations for the BMW being caught by the MINI, overheating and waiting up. I am not sure what the Porsche guys story was, but I think we have the start of a pretty good list here. 101 Excuses for why a MINI Beat Me.
So anyway thanks for filling us in guys. I am sure you are good racers and nice guys and everything, but this is the Internet, you have be expect all kinds people and comments and just go with it.
Anyway thanks for the refresher. It has been a long time since I had rear drive, rear engine explained to me, when my father took me for my first ride in his 911S in 1966 and since I first saw Porsches racing other cars at the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring that same year. Now if you could explain those wing things on Jim Halls' Chaparral I would be really impressed. :smile:
Having been on the track with the MINI several times and seen other racing MINIs I have a pretty good idea of what they are all about. The reason I thought that the Porsche should let the MINI by is because the MINI was all over him and he was spending so much time looking over his shoulder and then changing his line. In the club that I race with blocking isn't allowed and that is what this looked like. I don't think a driver should have to be that defensive in a club race.
The reason I thought it was just a trackday is because both cars kept changing their lines midcorner and bobbling all over the place and the cars didn't seem to be fully race prepared, as is confirmed by the later pictures. Sorry if I didn't recognise your superior skill levels from this video. This weekend I am off the the Montery Historics, where my brother has raced everything from a Ford GT40 to a Porsche 908/3. I will try and pay attention and try to learn to pick out the good drivers better. Although having developed an eye for driving skill while watching Niki Lauda come up through the ranks, when I worked for a documentry film company following F1, I think I can safely say that you guys should not hold your breath.
Later it was mentioned that this was just an exibition race and only "egos" were at stake. Funny how the egos are the biggest at the lowest levels and reduce in proportion as skill level increases. Having met German BWM racing greats Hans Stuck and Joachim Mass, in the mid-seventies when they got in to F1, I can tell you that the egos at that level are well in check and they are were the nicest guys.
I noticed in the various posts that we have two explainations for the BMW being caught by the MINI, overheating and waiting up. I am not sure what the Porsche guys story was, but I think we have the start of a pretty good list here. 101 Excuses for why a MINI Beat Me.
So anyway thanks for filling us in guys. I am sure you are good racers and nice guys and everything, but this is the Internet, you have be expect all kinds people and comments and just go with it.
BMWCCA allows 1 defensive move. Neither the 993 nor the Mini broke that rule. Ever see any blocking in F1 during your many years of motorsports watching exploits?
No one is making excuses about anything, especially the Mini's win over the 993. As for explanations on the M3's times...hey, I gave you a damn graph. I'm sure for an expert like you such hard data is meaningless though, eh?
Not fully race prepared? Put down the crack pipe, junior.
It's really a shame...you're making Mini driver's look really bad.
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
Double D I think you should leave well enough alone. You made your point. Some of them were good some were...off...I have been racing my self since BMW was still the offical car of Lime Rock Park...and grew up building M3 touring cars...much like the one you were driving in the vid although I could not tell if it was fully striped.
your defence of your friends or "setting the reacord straight" is great...however, I do agree that I was not impressed with the line of the 993 most of the time...I have driven porsches too and know they are different...but the line or "the fastest way through a corner" is always the same. yes if you are leading or following you change it up a little...but not so much as I saw in the video...IMO
At this point you made your point even so much as to post a pic of you flipping someone off
"a message for you"
this isn't a mustang board...and although you are driving a bimmer, I have notived one thing about mustang drivers and bimmer drivers...they act like they are the baddest thing out there...
Have you tracked the mini yet? and if not try it...it's alot of fun...yeah they don't make much power...but they can...and that is where you ask your self...
if I can make the same power as that M and it weighs less...and handles better...hmmn that could be alot of fun!!
all in all it's a great vid and shows that it's not the car...it how you drive it...all things equal in drivers...the only time power matters is on the straight....
your defence of your friends or "setting the reacord straight" is great...however, I do agree that I was not impressed with the line of the 993 most of the time...I have driven porsches too and know they are different...but the line or "the fastest way through a corner" is always the same. yes if you are leading or following you change it up a little...but not so much as I saw in the video...IMO
At this point you made your point even so much as to post a pic of you flipping someone off
"a message for you"
this isn't a mustang board...and although you are driving a bimmer, I have notived one thing about mustang drivers and bimmer drivers...they act like they are the baddest thing out there...
Have you tracked the mini yet? and if not try it...it's alot of fun...yeah they don't make much power...but they can...and that is where you ask your self...
if I can make the same power as that M and it weighs less...and handles better...hmmn that could be alot of fun!!
all in all it's a great vid and shows that it's not the car...it how you drive it...all things equal in drivers...the only time power matters is on the straight....
Originally Posted by DoubleD
And yes, that really is me.
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
From: Arroyo Del Valle
Originally Posted by DoubleD
Wow, you have an eye for skill because you've watched other people? That is the funniest thing I've heard in a loooooong time! Your daddy took you for a ride and you're brother drives historics? You're my hero!
BMWCCA allows 1 defensive move. Neither the 993 nor the Mini broke that rule. Ever see any blocking in F1 during your many years of motorsports watching exploits?
No one is making excuses about anything, especially the Mini's win over the 993. As for explanations on the M3's times...hey, I gave you a damn graph. I'm sure for an expert like you such hard data is meaningless though, eh?
Not fully race prepared? Put down the crack pipe, junior.
It's really a shame...you're making Mini driver's look really bad.
BMWCCA allows 1 defensive move. Neither the 993 nor the Mini broke that rule. Ever see any blocking in F1 during your many years of motorsports watching exploits?
No one is making excuses about anything, especially the Mini's win over the 993. As for explanations on the M3's times...hey, I gave you a damn graph. I'm sure for an expert like you such hard data is meaningless though, eh?
Not fully race prepared? Put down the crack pipe, junior.
It's really a shame...you're making Mini driver's look really bad.
I am not trying to be your hero. I mention the ride with my father and the visit to the Nurburgring at 14 years old because you are talking as if we are all children here. I have raced myself since then, as I mention in my post. I don't see the need to explain my whole history to you. When I see your name as a headliner I will pay more attention to you. In the mean time I will tease you if I feel like it.
The team owners who pick the drivers in F1 do it by watching them. Unlike Frank Williams most of them were not drivers. So there is such a thing has having an eye for talent. F1 does not allow blocking, only defensive positioning. They have penalties for moving to block.
Your cars are hardly fully prepared. You don't have the long horns on the front or the cow hide seat covers.
I think we can ad primping in the mirror for the Porsche drivers excuse. He was all over the track. Only 98 excuses to go to finish the 101 list.
I meet interesting people at the Historics who who can speak meaningfully about racing in a civilized manner. You are not one of them. You fully confirm my impressions of BMW drivers. I just hate it when I find them clogging up the back roads when I take my motorcyle out.
Originally Posted by DoubleD
And one more...that's me with a special message for you
Last edited by dave; Aug 22, 2005 at 06:46 AM.
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
From: Arroyo Del Valle
Originally Posted by Battle Cattle
And your mini
-Josh
-Josh
I don't have as much backroad driving time with the MINI as with the motorcyles. Have only manged to shovel a 996, a 928 and a 325 so far in the MINI.
But the guy in the M3 who held up our motorcycle ride sure got an ear full of exhaust pipe.
3rd Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 247
Likes: 1
the fact is...
Of these 3 cars (993, MCS, M3) the stock 993 and M3 are MUCH faster then a stock mini. Usually, when you mod 2 cars and one is faster stock, it will be faster modded.
Can we all agree that a modded 993 or M3 will be faster then a modded MCS? (assuming the same driver)
Please people, lets finish this off...
Of these 3 cars (993, MCS, M3) the stock 993 and M3 are MUCH faster then a stock mini. Usually, when you mod 2 cars and one is faster stock, it will be faster modded.
Can we all agree that a modded 993 or M3 will be faster then a modded MCS? (assuming the same driver)
Please people, lets finish this off...
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
Originally Posted by british kompressor
the fact is...
Of these 3 cars (993, MCS, M3) the stock 993 and M3 are MUCH faster then a stock mini. Usually, when you mod 2 cars and one is faster stock, it will be faster modded.
Can we all agree that a modded 993 or M3 will be faster then a modded MCS? (assuming the same driver)
Please people, lets finish this off...
Of these 3 cars (993, MCS, M3) the stock 993 and M3 are MUCH faster then a stock mini. Usually, when you mod 2 cars and one is faster stock, it will be faster modded.
Can we all agree that a modded 993 or M3 will be faster then a modded MCS? (assuming the same driver)
Please people, lets finish this off...
are you talking straight line or road course, if road course what course...it all depends...
the mini is lighter to begin with and will be lighter in the end...power is not everything...and power to weight is more important...combine that with better handling..having expirence with all these cars, I still choose the mini
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Tuls
Have you tracked the mini yet? and if not try it...it's alot of fun...yeah they don't make much power...but they can...and that is where you ask your self...
My point about line wasn't that there was more than 1 fastest line, but that the fastest line is not always the "ideal" line. As I'm sure you also know, changing your line up to make a following car's job harder is just part of the game.
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
Originally Posted by DoubleD
I agree completely. I have not tracked a mini but would love too. They seem to be great handling, fun cars to drive. I have driven an SRF and will get a chance to race one soon. I'm not horsepower-biased.
My point about line wasn't that there was more than 1 fastest line, but that the fastest line is not always the "ideal" line. As I'm sure you also know, changing your line up to make a following car's job harder is just part of the game.
My point about line wasn't that there was more than 1 fastest line, but that the fastest line is not always the "ideal" line. As I'm sure you also know, changing your line up to make a following car's job harder is just part of the game.
I agree with you about the line...was just checking....it almost sounded like you ment the 993 needed a different line..heh heh...as a car...not as it's position...
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Battle Cattle
seems like the time to post on some of their forums with their wonderful representation.
enjoy.
Last edited by DoubleD; Aug 16, 2005 at 02:54 PM. Reason: .com domain, not .org. duh!
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by british kompressor
the fact is...
Of these 3 cars (993, MCS, M3) the stock 993 and M3 are MUCH faster then a stock mini. Usually, when you mod 2 cars and one is faster stock, it will be faster modded.
Can we all agree that a modded 993 or M3 will be faster then a modded MCS? (assuming the same driver)
Please people, lets finish this off...
Of these 3 cars (993, MCS, M3) the stock 993 and M3 are MUCH faster then a stock mini. Usually, when you mod 2 cars and one is faster stock, it will be faster modded.
Can we all agree that a modded 993 or M3 will be faster then a modded MCS? (assuming the same driver)
Please people, lets finish this off...
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by MCLeonard
It is a real shame that you can't get your ego in check and be civilized and recognise a little ribbing and play nice with people. I guess I should expect as much from a Texas big hat who gets to drive his friends BMW.
Originally Posted by MCLeonard
I am not trying to be your hero. I mention the ride with my father and the visit to the Nurburgring at 14 years old because you are talking as if we are all children here. I have raced myself since then, as I mention in my post. I don't see the need to explain my whole history to you. When I see your name as a headliner I will pay more attention to you. In the mean time I will tease you if I feel like it.
Originally Posted by MCLeonard
The team owners who pick the drivers in F1 do it by watching them. Unlike Frank Williams most of them were not drivers. So there is such a thing has having an eye for talent. F1 does not allow blocking, only defensive positioning. They have penalties for moving to block.
Originally Posted by MCLeonard
Your cars are hardly fully prepared. You don't have the long horns on the front or the cow hide seat covers.
Originally Posted by MCLeonard
I think we can ad primping in the mirror for the Porsche drivers excuse. He was all over the track. Only 98 excuses to go to finish the 101 list.
Originally Posted by MCLeonard
I meet interesting people at the Historics who who can speak meaningfully about racing in a civilized manner. You are not one of them. You fully confirm my impressions of BMW drivers. I just hate it when I find them clogging up the back roads when I take my motorcyle out.
Originally Posted by MCLeonard
I don't have as much backroad driving time with the MINI as with the motorcyles. Have only manged to shovel a 996, a 928 and a 325 so far in the MINI. But the guy in the M3 who held up our motorcycle ride sure got an ear full of exhaust pipe
But the guy in the M3 who held up our motorcycle ride sure got an ear full of exhaust pipe
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Tuls
Right on...
I agree with you about the line...was just checking....it almost sounded like you ment the 993 needed a different line..heh heh...as a car...not as it's position...
I agree with you about the line...was just checking....it almost sounded like you ment the 993 needed a different line..heh heh...as a car...not as it's position...
For example, where the mini passed the 993 he did it at the top of "boot hill", a series of 3 left handers with the 1st going up a small, blind hill. The 993 apexed all 3 left handers although his "ideal" line involves displacing the apex of the 2nd turn by half a car width. Doing so would have allowed the mini underneath him, so he took the apex away.
4th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
From: London England
Just saw the video.
I personally think that both of the drivers had a blast and a good race. It was on a track and done safely. Nice cars all around.
Porsche's are bread from a strong racing history. The Mini has a strong racing history and of course BMW has a strong racing history. I am sure that any of the cars could jockey for position given any number of factors.
Bottom Line. It looks like Fun to me and I wish if I were there to test my skills.
I personally think that both of the drivers had a blast and a good race. It was on a track and done safely. Nice cars all around.
Porsche's are bread from a strong racing history. The Mini has a strong racing history and of course BMW has a strong racing history. I am sure that any of the cars could jockey for position given any number of factors.
Bottom Line. It looks like Fun to me and I wish if I were there to test my skills.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,062
Likes: 1
From: Boston, MA
Yet another thread returned from "Under Review" yet still strewn with infantile garbage. I feel bad
that I ever disagreed with those who complain about inconsistent moderation on this site.
that I ever disagreed with those who complain about inconsistent moderation on this site.
Last edited by dave; Aug 22, 2005 at 06:47 AM.
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,004
Likes: 0
From: San Gabriel
Hey erik99 what happen to the link????
Originally Posted by erik99
4th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
From: London England
Originally Posted by AC_MINI
Hey erik99 what happen to the link????
Can anyone email it to me or post it on another server ?
Please and pretty please...
Kesh