I was sitting in my buddy's car the other day at about 3 to 4 AM in the morning. When we were exiting, there is a huge curve. Don't worry, we did not attack the curve at killer speeds, or D1 the curve. Here's how my friend approached it... he would brake, turn, and reapply brakes in the middle of the turn. I felt the rear shake out a bit from him doing this, and it was a bad line, approach, and just felt dangerous. So I was trying to explain to him after. You apply brakes to slow down as much as you can before you turn, cruise it, and then accelerate out. Basically the brake in, accelerate out method. He refused to believe me when I told him, braking, downshifting, and accelerating in the middle of the curve can through your car off balance. So now I'm trying to find a simple online article that explains that... Does anyone have any references?

 

I very rarely downshift at times (when I take a ramp at a little spirited speed but half way into the curve I run into an SUV that's moving like a fat pig) but do not brake or accelerate in the middle of a turn. It's very simple: Braking is most efficient when done in a straight line. If you brake during a turn, you split the traction between your braking and turning. As a result turning of the car suffers.

Braking in the middle of a turn means (like you said minidrmer) that the job wasn't done before starting the turn/curve. The same goes for acceleration: only hit the gas coming out of the curve / turn - otherwise the grip gets split between turning and the acceleration and the car potentially can enter an unstable equilibrium with respect to the road.


In situations where you are absolutely pushing traction, braking is dangerous because it will push traction over the limit and the result might be the car will steer off the road. There will always be situations when one will need to brake in the middle of a curve / turn - avoiding collisions for one but as a rule, braking in the middle of a curve is not recommended.

Your friend needs some re-education .

 

In the most recent issue of the NAM Alliance, there is a very good article on taking turns. (part 3 of a series) It can be found starting on page 27 and gives a very good explanation of how to take various types of turns on a track. (that info can also be applied to daily driving)

Hope you can convince your friend of the proper technique.
Friends are too valuable to loose.

Motor on!

 

Sign your friend up for some instruction either an HPDE or BMWCCA driving school ASAP.

This thread:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ight=spin+lift

Show your friend the end of this video:
http://www.sbtontheweb.com/forum/sho...1&postcount=11

This book:
http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Solo-R.../dp/0962057312

The assorted links on this page:
http://www.drivingfast.net/car_control.htm

This photo is what happens when the induced spin meets the wall....


So yeah basically DO NOT LIFT, BRAKE, SHIFT or upset the car mid corner.

I'm sure I can find more information supporting this if you need it.

 

Tell your friend to Google the words "Making Better Turns" or "How to Drive around curves" and that should supply him with plenty of online knowledge.There may even be information about it on YouTube...

 

All these articles are good.
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_braking

 

Ouch! Who was driving Phil's car when that happened?

 

All it takes is one accident, then it will stick.

 

Well the fastest way around a corner is to brake, then trail brake while turning and downshifting at the same time. But if your buddy can't handle that (and I'll readily admit that I can't), explain physics to him. Your tires only have so much grip; if you use it braking, you can't turn. Downshifting upsets the balance (assuming this is a manual and he's lifting the throttle or blipping it depending where in the corner he is) of the car and will change the way it handles and being on a knife-edge already may throw him into a spin.

 

When you brake or lift the accelerator, the weight of the car transfers forward to the front wheels. This can cause the rear wheels to have less grip.

So, braking in a turn can cause the rear end to get loose. Some very skilled drivers will use that to rotate the car in a turn. The rest of us will end up going backwards.

 

Weight transfer/physics can be a ***** sometimes Damn you, science.

 

Number 1. Any, ANY driving school, book, race driver, DVD, etc. will tell him that your braking should be done by the time you enter the curve and downshifting is so you will be in the proper gear for the curve not for slowing down. If he persist in his notion of driving he might want to be fitted for a bra not a helmet for his head....

 

So you should downshift during the turn? I don't have my MINI yet and it will be my first manual, but was practicing on my in-law's old manual Volvo today and was having issues figuring out the best way to turn--this thread came at the right time for me! Of course, I'm talking driving on a street rather than racing, but I could use to learn some proper driving techniques.

So say you are on a pretty big street and you are going 45mph or so. Then you need to make a right turn. A right turn is fairly tight so you need to slow down quite a bit for the turn, which puts you in the wrong gear once you come out of the turn and want to accelerate down the street you just turned onto. When do I downshift to say second? as I am going through the turn? It sounds like at some point during the turn I should be done braking and be back on the accelerator a little bit, so is that the time to downshift?

 

Especially in your first manual (Lewis is mine, too ), always brake and shift in a straight line.
Approaching that right-hand turn, brake, then clutch when your rpm gets low enough that you feel like you're close to idle. At that point, select the gear you want to be in when you exit the corner (probably second unless it's a wide corner). Lift off the brake and turn in. When you've rotated most of the way into the corner, you can begin to get on the gas and off the clutch. Be aware that in a fwd car you'll get some understeer as the weight transfers rearward when you accelerate (in other words, don't take a wide line and get on it hard). You'll exit the corner in the proper gear and gaining speed.
Once you master that, you can work on heel and toe downshifting.

 

Sterling Moss and every successful formula driver since he first perfected trail braking would disagree. I can't speak for the other schools, but Skip Barber and Danny Collins would agree with me. Braking does not end until you first turn in and smoothly shift the weight to the outside front tire. Then it's right back on the throttle, modulated appropriately for the specific curve at the threshhold of traction loss. Decreasing radius and double apex turns need a lot more explanation.

 

Umm. A very good read is Bob Bondurant's book on High-Performance Driving. Just google his school and you can order it directly from him, about $30.00. It is a bit of an advertisement for his school but goes into very good detail on the best techniques and why they work.

 

+1.

Shifting is done before the turn. Trail braking like mentioned above not only works, but its orgasmic when you get it right. Easing off the brake while entering the turn then immediately getting on the throttle pulls the car through the apex (on the proper turn, there are turns you don't want to trail brake on) indescribably better than getting the braking done completely prior to the turn.

Unfortunately, its not as easy as it sounds to get it right--you have to have your speed just right, so that you're not coming into the corner too hot, or too slow to trail brake. Its an art I'm just learning (and only doing on low speed corners until I get better at it).

 

Driving 101...you should try to talk your buddy into a track day with instructions so he can save a life on the if not his own

 

The tough part is learning to coordinate the toe/heel shifting so that it is completed before turn-in. The whole process gets screwed up if you are using the tires instead of the throttle to synchronize engine speed with road speed. The only way to learn is to constantly drive using toe/heel shifting.

 

Totaly agree with you, just simplifing in a quick response. Trail braking maintains the weight transfer and set of the car until acceleration, but you are not really using it to slow down.

 

Learning to judge what gear to be in after the turn is something you will aquire over time. You want to enter the at a speed that will carry you thru and if you miss judge the entry speed or exit speed you can prepar the gear you should be in right at the exit. And if it does not feel safe then just downshift when you get your car straight. You would be well served takinh a competitive driving course. Good luck

 

Check out the links at the bottom of the page, too
http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/inslow.html

Better yet buy a video and watch together. Try Hooked on Driving:
http://www.google.com/products?q=Hoo...num=1&ct=title

 

Another good read.... http://www.redlinerennsport.com/DriversEdEd.html

Considering trail braking before some track time, with instruction, is probably not the wisest move...

 

If your going to make a sharp/tight right turn, it doesn't really matter how fast your going because you can only turn a right turn effectively at a certain speed. And that speed you can usually find in 2nd or 3rd gear from my experience. I would assume 1st. gear is too much torque for a sharp right turn, and 4th gear, you would over work your engine. If you want to turn a sharp right on say a track, I think you should look up the "left foot braking technique." That is extremely useful especially since the MINI is a front wheel drive car.

Thanks for everyone for the articles they posted and references to books and videos. This was actually very informative to me as well.

 

Like has been said before, take a High Speed Driving Education class. They are sooo much fun and will make anyone a better driver. After, and I repeat After you have had some track experience under your belt you can learn trail braking and then even do left foot braking - pressing the Brake with your left foot at the same time you press the the gas with your right foot - All at the same time while you are driving through a turn!
BUT, DO NOT TRY THIS UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND WHY YOU ARE DOING IT.
As a rule of thumb though, you are right. Brake and get your downshift done before you begin your turn.