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So as an early birthday gift to myself ( I turn 31 today) I bought some track time at MSRH just south of Houston in Angleton. With two long straights, a pit straight and then two long sweepers than can easily be linked as a straight before entering an awesome gut check of a turn called the launch, I was, needless to say, being passed often. After running so much at GSS, I almost forgot what it was like to be passed.
Running at MSRH made me realize how GSS is basically a faster autox without the cones. To say GSS favors the mini cooper would be an understatment. I also noticed that the track surface at MSRH lacked the grip of GSS but on the flip side this extends tire life. Unfortunately for me, I did not adapt to this soon enough.
I had my first spin Coming through the carousel (long left hander) I was trying to catch a BRZ and decided I would get a good run on him down the pit straight as this a risky corner where most people don't push it. 7/10ths corners for sure. I got a big wobble in the rear as I lifted to try to get the car flat for the transition into the right hander turn 'joe bone' and I saw two options.
1. Try to correct
2. Ride it out
If I corrected but wasn't able to stick it I would either cut across the inside of Joe Bone where a Lotus Evora was likely trying to get a run on me OR slide into a concrete wall.
Riding it out involved spinning off the inside of the exit of the carousel/entrance of joe bone at 87 mph. It is really hard to describe all the details in writing here but at the time I believe I made the right decision with what was facing me. I really believe the attitude of the car would not have accepted my attempted correction and the stakes were just too high. Instead I came to a graceful stop in a patch of grass along the pit entrance. I was enormously impressed with my ability to stay calm given how disastrous that could have turned out, the speed of my decision making and how I quickly got back on the track unfazed (must be from my sport bike racing days). I also processed all this information soo quickly.
Lessons learned:
1. I should not have done as large a lift as I did to settle the car for the transition.
2. I should have dialed out a bit more steering angle before I went to settle the car.
3. Always check tire pressures - I didn't mention it above but I think high rear tire pressures played a big role in this
4. And lastly and most obviously don't push in the 7/10ths corner its just a track day not a race.
I found that I could go through the carousel comfortably (7/10ths) at 80mph vs the 90mph I was pushing in that run. If I am going to get there it needs to be incremental.
The funny thing is the Evora I thought was all over my tail ready to get a run at me was in fact quite far back as he showed my on his gopro of the incident. We had a good laugh over lunch. That was one of the main reasons I didn't try to correct.
Later in the day I had another incident which I couldn't see coming at all. Coming down the pit straight I blipped the downshift from 4 -3 and got on the brakes just ahead of the 300 mark as I was taking it a bit easier on this run given there were two cars off the track being actively recovered (I'm not a fan of this). I felt nothing different under braking but I also wasn't braking as hard as normal as I was moving a bit slower given the safety vehicles swarming the track a few corners away. When I initiated my turn in the car spun so fast I can't even remember how many rotations I did. I instantly thought that there must be fluids down on the track because not only did I do everything as normal, I also did it at slower than normal and further from the tire's traction limit. Anyways the car did some more off-roading and the underside of the car hit the kerbing pretty hard. I need to inspect the car some more but the madness lower brace which some vendors gave me sh*t for buying actually saved the lower end of my car.
I wish I could say that everything in between those incidents was perfect but I was learning the track and the groups I was running with were very quick. I felt quick in some sections and running behind the lead instructor and having him spin showed just how hard everyone was pushing it. The lap times the top guys in our group were putting down would have put them in good position in the german touring car race that was also run that day.
For most of the day the rear of the car was more unsettled than normal. I am sure that some of that was tire pressure and some could have been driving style, but I am wondering if maybe I need to stagger brake pads but putting a less aggressive pad in the rear. Or is it time to get a huge wing
I was also able to meet Alan who races a Green R53 pictured below. The car has had some serious track prep done to it by a shop in Fort Worth but he runs a stock engine grouped against Porsches and M3s which is testament to Mini power and driver skill. I am curious to talk to him about the race I clocked him between 1:46 and 1:48 with my phone stopwatch. I am sure he is not stoked about his result but I was rooting for you the whole way.
This track day ended the same as my last one. With me running half the track to go pick up a fender that popped loose. This time around I even taped them down. Does anyone know good after market ones I can rivet on? Otherwise I am just going to pull them all off for full 24h lemons look.
I am really stoked after this last event. I learned a lot about car control and NASA racing, got to meet new people and I finally got my first spin out of the way. I wish I had more time and money to devote to this project but I have to do it incrementally and with that I will gain experience and learn. I just wish I could do a bit more.
With that said I will probably not be back on track until the Feb 21 event at GSS. Until then some serious wrenching must take place to discover the source of an oil leak, possibly delete the AC, install oil cooler, get some camber and a good professional alignment especially after hitting that kerbing. Stay tuned
Wow, you are a talented and lucky SOB
That same situation didn't quite turn out the same for me a few years back...
From my experience, with a BARB (big A rear sway bar) if you lift and the back starts to come around, it will happen very fast and almost always with "fatal" (to the car at least) consequences.
I am not a fan of BARBs just because of the problem that you got into. These are great for autocross. They allow you to swing the tail around in tight corners. For that reason they are not great for high speed tracks with sweepers. With a BARB if you lift at speed with the wheel turn at all, the car will tend to want to spin. It has to do with the really low polar moment of inertia that the car has and the fact that you are dramatically reducing the traction in the rear when you lift because the front bar is not big enough to compensate for the transfer in weight to the front when you lift. The only way to address this is to always have the power on after you turn the steering wheel.
I went with a BAFB and a BARB to control this situation and it has served me well. On a high speed track (WGI), going through the esses at 110 mph I hit antifreeze at the apex of first turn in the sequence. I felt the front wash out and I can remember everything going into slow motion and I was saying to myself - "keep the power on; keep the power on" - as I slide towards the guardrail on the other side of the track and only a foot off the track. I would have been willing to slide along the guardrail if anything was to happen, but I didn't want to hit it head on because of a spin. I credit the balance in the car with the sway bars I have as saving the day. The car behaved very well and I never left the track. I understand 2 other cars where not so lucky.
A lot of people make up for the lack of front roll stiffness with coilovers with stiffer springs in them. You are actually better off with a stiffer front swaybar (I know, I'll get a lot of Booos for that one), and softer front springs to allow for camber gain as the car's springs compress under braking.
That same situation didn't quite turn out the same for me a few years back...
From my experience, with a BARB (big A rear sway bar) if you lift and the back starts to come around, it will happen very fast and almost always with "fatal" (to the car at least) consequences.
I am not a fan of BARBs just because of the problem that you got into. These are great for autocross. They allow you to swing the tail around in tight corners. For that reason they are not great for high speed tracks with sweepers. With a BARB if you lift at speed with the wheel turn at all, the car will tend to want to spin. It has to do with the really low polar moment of inertia that the car has and the fact that you are dramatically reducing the traction in the rear when you lift because the front bar is not big enough to compensate for the transfer in weight to the front when you lift. The only way to address this is to always have the power on after you turn the steering wheel.
I went with a BAFB and a BARB to control this situation and it has served me well. On a high speed track (WGI), going through the esses at 110 mph I hit antifreeze at the apex of first turn in the sequence. I felt the front wash out and I can remember everything going into slow motion and I was saying to myself - "keep the power on; keep the power on" - as I slide towards the guardrail on the other side of the track and only a foot off the track. I would have been willing to slide along the guardrail if anything was to happen, but I didn't want to hit it head on because of a spin. I credit the balance in the car with the sway bars I have as saving the day. The car behaved very well and I never left the track. I understand 2 other cars where not so lucky.
A lot of people make up for the lack of front roll stiffness with coilovers with stiffer springs in them. You are actually better off with a stiffer front swaybar (I know, I'll get a lot of Booos for that one), and softer front springs to allow for camber gain as the car's springs compress under braking.
Sorry to be preachy here...
I am glad all worked out ok in this situation.
Hope your next event is great.
Great to read your posts.
Lucky and good reflexes. I hear you on the big rear sway bar. I had it on medium setting but will def run it full soft next time out.
I am actually toying with the idea of a (gulp) wing now. (dont flame me). But before I commit do that travesty I need to get my adjustable rear control arms on and finally get some camber in the rears and see if that helps out at all. That will def be done before the next track day.
I think of all the vendor-available wings out there the Sneed4Speed one means the most business. http://www.sneed4speed.com/mini-r53-aero/
Otherwise I would need to have a custom wing made.
Anyways here are some more pics from the trackday http://mohflo.photoreflect.com/store...00330Z&gf=true They are $20 a pop and I cant decide which one I like the most 75 maybe 76 ? Photo 54 is awesome bc that is me mid spin but you can't tell unfortunately.
I was also able to meet Alan who races a Green R53 pictured below. The car has had some serious track prep done to it by a shop in Fort Worth but he runs a stock engine grouped against Porsches and M3s which is testament to Mini power and driver skill. I am curious to talk to him about the race I clocked him between 1:46 and 1:48 with my phone stopwatch. I am sure he is not stoked about his result but I was rooting for you the whole way.
Actually it was a great weekend for me. First outing on 15x9s and 225/45 R7s. The car was ~1.5 seconds/lap faster with the wide wheels & tires.
Our race group has about a half dozen different race classes in it. There were 7 GTS2 cars in the about 15 car race group.
I qualified P1 for race 1 and finished 2nd. I won race 2. Race 3 I finished 4th after having to pit at the end of lap 1 to get the hood closed properly. New hood draw latches on the way to me from Pegasus racing.
Fastest lap of the weekend was a 1:46.5
Official results should be on MyLaps by this weekend.
Actually it was a great weekend for me. First outing on 15x9s and 225/45 R7s. The car was ~1.5 seconds/lap faster with the wide wheels & tires.
Our race group has about a half dozen different race classes in it. There were 7 GTS2 cars in the about 15 car race group.
I qualified P1 for race 1 and finished 2nd. I won race 2. Race 3 I finished 4th after having to pit at the end of lap 1 to get the hood closed properly. New hood draw latches on the way to me from Pegasus racing.
Fastest lap of the weekend was a 1:46.5
Official results should be on MyLaps by this weekend.
Ahhh that must have been the race i saw where you had to pit after the first lap out ... wasnt sure what happened. Awesome results.. i figured there were multiple classes out there
Lucky and good reflexes. I hear you on the big rear sway bar. I had it on medium setting but will def run it full soft next time out.
I am actually toying with the idea of a (gulp) wing now. (dont flame me). But before I commit do that travesty I need to get my adjustable rear control arms on and finally get some camber in the rears and see if that helps out at all. That will def be done before the next track day.
I think of all the vendor-available wings out there the Sneed4Speed one means the most business. http://www.sneed4speed.com/mini-r53-aero/
Otherwise I would need to have a custom wing made.
Anyways here are some more pics from the trackday http://mohflo.photoreflect.com/store...00330Z&gf=true They are $20 a pop and I cant decide which one I like the most 75 maybe 76 ? Photo 54 is awesome bc that is me mid spin but you can't tell unfortunately.
Let me know which pic you like !
Hey, if I'm not getting flamed for suggesting the use of a really big front sway bar to go with the BARB you have on the back, I doubt that you will be for suggesting use of a wing... http://www.m7tuning.com/m7-c-wing-r53-756.html
As for taming the rear tail happiness, remember this is a dynamic thing that happens with the transfer of weight as you initiate a turn. There is also a camber change that occurs with that weight transfer. There are multiple ways to tackle this issue. First being to soften the RSB, as you suggest. The second is to add more rear camber, which you also suggest. However, I believe your suspension already allows for rear camber adjustment (the R56 does, I know for sure). You can get another degree of camber if it is the same. Don't be surprised, but the stock setting is -1.3 deg on the R56. You can do this without the adjustable control arms. However, while this is change that is worth trying, it may not help as much as you might think because you may already be making full use of the rear tires. If the rear tires are not rolling over on the side walls then more camber may not be the thing you need. But remember that as you add camber to the front, you should consider adding camber to the back.
The wing might help, but the dynamic is going to be that at speed it pushes down on the rear of the car which will lift the front of the car. This is going to add understeer which you are trying to get rid of by having the big rear sway bar. With the pitch of the car's weight towards the outside front corner of the car in a turn, the RSB counters that pitch by lifting up on the inside rear wheel. This transfers some weight to the rear, improving traction in the front, but it also reduces the traction in the rear. Hence the tendency for the car to want to swap ends. The wing may work when it has a lot of down force as you enter a turn, but as your speed decrease, the down force decreases and the dynamic effect of the RSB may kick in when you are at your max g load causing your car to over rotate. I admit to guessing a bit here, but I say it as a caution and something to watch out for. The other disadvantage of the wing is the added drag.
Another option is stiffer shocks and springs (coilovers, but make them good ones). Because this is a dynamic event, stiffer shocks will slow the event, making it less dramatic and easier to control. Stiffer springs add to the overall roll stiffness of the car and this will cut down on the extent of weight transfer. This is the route that most MINI owner go to dial in their cars.
Then there is my method of balancing the big rear bar with a big front bar to make a car with almost no body roll in any corner...
My bad experience came with a 20mm RSB while on the softest setting. IMHO there is not enough shock damping and front roll stiffness with the stock suspension to balance out the big RSB and preclude that snap oversteer. There needs to be other suspension changes to make it all work together.
I am being a bit preachy because I know the consequences of not having a dialed-in suspension...
HI all - Just a quick update. I have a pile of parts and no time to install. This weekend I worked on my rear brakes which are riding a bit. I am scared the piston is not retracting properly (see pic) and couldn't really track down the problem. Basically spent most of Sunday on that. Brakes are still squeaking in the rear when brakes are not engaged.
Next track day is Feb 28. Will be getting the car in shape for another day at GSS which is a tire-eater of a track. This will involve remounting tires, oil change, brake fluid bleed, installing race seat. I got some hi-temp brake fluid from wilwood so will be running that.
Finally got my awesome oil cooler from madness which I ordered well before xmas. No installation instructions so I am a little nervous about install. I am not even sure where exactly I will place it. That probably won't go in until after the track day.
Also ... what do you guys think about yellow GT headlight tints ????
For the rear brakes. You just installed new pads/rotors right? Check out this thread HERE and see if it relates or is similar in your case.
While you're in there and doing this all maybe replacing the dust boot on them might not be a bad idea. I really need to do a complete reseal kit on my calipers as they have 180k on them and lots of abuse on the track. We have the rear caliper dust seal HERE.
Oh, and I think the yellow headlight tint will look awesome!
Yes, #4 below is the retaining spring. Figure 17 in that article is in reference to I believe the front pads (last picture below). You'll want to look at figure 10 in the article (2nd to last image below).
Ahh that makes sense bc I didnt have those on mine. I def have the #4 retaining spring there. Its the part in the second pic that I do not think I attached properly at all.
Done the r56 brakes and the R52 brakes many times. The spring clip in the back can be a pain to line up on the rear piston. I would start one side and then slide in the other, the clips like to pop out of place and can be a real bugger.
The r56 rear have those clips which snap in on the top and bottom. Most aftermarket pads don't have them so you have to reuse the old ones,. I clean them off with a wire push and dab on some high temp brake paste.
Does anyone here have much experience with Group4 Autosport? I have left them an email and a couple voicemails requesting some more info on their products and heard nothing back. Looks like they were getting big at one point and stalled out is kind of the impression the website gives.
There's a thread over on m0t0ringalliance about them from '12-'13. Seems pretty positive. Just Google Group4 Autosport and it should pop up. Someone chimed in saying they're friends with the owner and left his email for people to contact him if they can't get in touch (jdulam@gmail.com).
the company just seemed to be really clued in the aero side of the mini cooper
I keep looking at my car for low hanging gains to be made and its like ok this thing is a brick in aero terms there has to be some really easy ways to clean this up a bit. Group4 may have sussed that out to an extent
I also have plans to eventually make vented B-pillar :D
Very nice. Aero is always just so fun to think about in terms of gains on the track. I seriously cannot wait to add a splitter and I really want a Kognition wing ($2k wing). I have a diffuser right now, but need to get a splitter to really make it functional. You going to do the B-pillar yourself?
Very nice. Aero is always just so fun to think about in terms of gains on the track. I seriously cannot wait to add a splitter and I really want a Kognition wing ($2k wing). I have a diffuser right now, but need to get a splitter to really make it functional. You going to do the B-pillar yourself?
I have a guy who does all sorts of gnarly custom stuff. Its on the list just a question of when budget-wise
Hes cool but we're not really friends per say more like i give him money to do work and I work alongside him to speed up the operation since he charges hourly...The real awesome thing is that I learn things along the way
Hes cool but we're not really friends per say more like i give him money to do work and I work alongside him to speed up the operation since he charges hourly...The real awesome thing is that I learn things along the way
Ah, well being able to be hands on during the process will most certainly help you learn. That's how I learned over the years. Eventually want to just get a trasher that needs some serious love and do a full rebuild on it myself. That's for in the future though, when I have time for that type of project.
Very nice. Aero is always just so fun to think about in terms of gains on the track. I seriously cannot wait to add a splitter and I really want a Kognition wing ($2k wing). I have a diffuser right now, but need to get a splitter to really make it functional. You going to do the B-pillar yourself?
I dont see where a kognition wing would fit on a mini
Coming through the carousel (long left hander) I was trying to catch a BRZ and decided I would get a good run on him down the pit straight as this a risky corner where most people don't push it. 7/10ths corners for sure. I got a big wobble in the rear as I lifted to try to get the car flat for the transition into the right hander turn 'joe bone' and I saw two options.
