The track I started on was ~3.5 miles with something like 23 turns. It was a real brake killer with some big slow down areas like 125 to about 50 mph and a 100 to 35 mph. I tried a set of HPS and in a half a day they were overheated and glazed over; absolutely no bite at all. I was a novice at the time. These have almost as high of a temp rating as the HP+, so I figured why bother with the HP+. If I overheated the HPS I was going to overheat the HP+. Also, all of the advanced MINI drivers that I knew at the time were running with the Carbotechs. So I just leapfrogged over the "street/track" pads and went to the XP10s. I found that they inspire confidence and never give up.

Here are the coefficient of friction (grip) and temp ranges for the Hawk "track" pads. You can see that the HP+ is only good for about 800 deg. The DTC60 is good for about 1400 deg and it has about half again more grip.

http://www.hawkperformance.com/compound-graph

Given relatively similarly setup cars, what we are talking about here is a difference in driving styles and/or tracks. Lime Rock Park is easy on brakes while Watkins Glen is hard on brakes. Some people brake early, others brake late. All of this is going to influence what works and what doesn't for a brake pad.

However, irrespective of the track if you have not tried a set of the Carbotechs (or other race pad), even at twice the price of the street/track pads, I would highly suggest that you do just for one set to see what I have been talking about.

 

Interesting! I've never experienced fade with them on the same rubber at my HPDE's. The current cruddy street pads I'm running I haven't ran into fade either, but I assume my setup helps keep the pads pretty cool during each session. Still don't compare at all with the Carbotech's I ran though, that's for sure. I'll have to look into the DTC-70's as a future perspective and do some more research for the upcoming season.

This is directed for you (Alan) and Eddie:

Since I only ran the Carbotech's on a car that was not mine, as far as longevity and performance, what pads besides Carbotech's have you noticed lasted a good amount and didn't give-in performance wise even when there wasn't a lot of pad left?

 

I haven't run Carbotech pads so I can't give any comparative feedback.

The DTC series pads can be run down to the thickness of the backing plate before replacement. I do flip the front pads at least once a weekend to even out wear - the Outlaw calipers tend to wear the leading edge most. And Hawk has an awesome contingency with NASA.

As far as longevity - front pads last about 2 race weekends / rear pads last about 10 race weekends.

 

Alan - Running high speed oval tracks or auto X smaller lower speed tracks ? Have pics of the tracks you run.

 

These are the tracks I race most years.

CotA

Eagles Canyon


Hallett


MSR Houston

Motorsports Ranch

TWS 2.9

This year I am scheduled to run NOLA for the first time.

I would consider these tracks medium to high speed. Here is the link to my YouTube page - All of the newer vids should have telemetry.

 

Very nice, , Yea not too many hills in TX. These look high speed. CoTA , one cool track.

 

Very nice. Yes, that is why I am trying to stick with HAWK. Good tip on the flipping of the pads.

edit: Almost went to NOLA with GTA and Forge's event. Good friends with the guys over at Forge, but just couldn't find the time unfortunately. :(

 

I need to ask - what brakes are you running in front? Stock S, BBK, etc?

It has been quite a while since I have run the Carbo's but I ran them on stock S brakes and then on the Wilwoods. On the stock brakes I probably got two HPDE events out of them at Monticello (the 3.5 mi 23 turn track); again, a track tough on brakes. Not sure what I got with them on the Wilwoods. The conundrum is that with the high friction of a race pad as compared to pads like the HP+, the brake temperatures will tend to be higher as you will tend to brake later and harder. This all means that wear rates go up. For me it also meant that with the Carbo's I over heated the backing plate with the stock brake calipers and bent the pads around the caliper piston. This prematurely wore out the inner pads on both wheels (almost to the metal); hence only getting 2 days out of them. That is when I went to the Wilwoods, which was the first mod I did to the car. The over heating of the backing plate probably would have happened with any race pad give the track and how I was driving. I did get better wear out of them on the Wilwoods but I couldn't tell you how may HPDE days on a set other than more than 2 (I generally do 2 day events when I go to WGI).

 

Please don't jump on me here but I went with basic brembo rotors and Hawk HP+ pads as this setup was in my budget. Next time I promise I will go with the carbotechs. I know I can safely get around GransportSpeedway with HP+. There are only three heavyish braking zones and if your brakes are going you can get off the throttle early in one of the braking zones and just coast thru it and hit similar times. One is a 95 -> 80mph the next is like 70 -> 50 and another 90 -> 80. (its a short technical track I only hit like 95).

Anyway next track day is this Sunday Jan 10 and the weather is looking perfect. Temps just barely in the double digits, sunny and 0% chance of rain.

This weekend I stopped in to see NAM member sssevita's garage here in Houston. Its a gnarly place filled with mini cooper parts and vintage scooters. You can see our cars below. He has a really great track set up and I look forward to hitting the track with him. He runs zimmerman rotors with EBC yellow pads. Unfortunately this weekend he will be going to Texas World Speedway while I will be at GSS.

Anyway this month is my birthday so I think there will be some more goodies rolling in.

I still need negative camber its ridiculous so I will be getting the vorschlag plates up front also I am looking at way motorworks' race front sway bar bushings and control arm bushings. Slap it all on and go get a good alignment. Still need SS brake lines and a race seat would really be the icing on the cake. I am looking at the Sparco Evo package just bc its such a simple plug and play install option. Any suggestions on race seats?

 

You MUST have roll over protection (at least a roll bar / harness bar) with a race seat. A standard seat is designed to fail at the hinge in the event of a roll over and compromise of the A and/or B pillar. A race seat is designed to hold you upright.

 

Thank you man. I did not know that

 

Brembo 4 pot brakes. (This is a non-MINI car). I've got a very good setup, which may be why there is a difference with pad experiences. Makes sense about the wear rates with the braking points and the difference with each track you race at. With the Carbotech's I was able to really push it hard and brake late. They're worth the money, but just wish they weren't so expensive sometimes. You have to pay to play. I'm going to play around with the HP+, DTC-70 and possibly the Carbotech's in the coming season. I'm intrigued now to really test out the differences.

 

Looking forward to hearing your report after the track day with the HP+'s. As far as a race seat, I have yet to change out my interior from stock. (Granted the seats I have hold me in position somewhat decently). I invested in a good helmet, suit, and other protective agents before I've jumped into those upgrades. Those will be next and the Evo series is what I am looking into as well. Happy early birthday and have fun at your track day!

 

No jump
The basic rotors will be good. And the Pads will be fine as long as you recognize their performance.

A suggestion - when you put in the camber plates, readjust the rear camber to match the front. You should be able to get close as long as you are aiming to get about -2 deg

Your plans sounds good.
Have fun.

 

As good as the Carbotechs are, I have been using the Wilwood pads because of cost. But, I will also say that part of that is because I have been fighting an incompatibility between the Wilwoods and the DTC option on the car where it applies the brakes to act as an LSD. I burned out a set of brakes in 2 sessions because that stupid system. With the R53s you guys, thankfully, don't have to deal with this.

I expect that your Brembos are similar to my Wilwoods and they make for a really good setup.

I will be very interested in hearing what you have to say about the different pads and how they perform for you.

 

Does anyone know if they make speed bleeders for the OEM R53 calipers

Also does the Wilwood 11.75 brake kit include speed bleeders ?

 

Yes, we do for the front calipers HERE. We also have the Motive Power Bleeders HERE, which allow you to do brake bleeding without pumping the brakes.

 

I will most definitely report back and let you know!

 

whoa how does that work ?

 

There are instructions HERE and posted a video below.

 

I don't know what speed bleeders are...but the Wilwoods have standard bleeders. Because of their design to be left or right side, they have bleeders top and bottom. I use the Motive pressure bleeder and bleed from both. With the pressure bleed I do the whole system in a hour.

 

Any M10-1.0 "speed bleeder" will fit the caliper body replacing the brass fitting.

You may also want to seek out 1/4-28 bleeders however that will replace only the black nipple bleeder inside the brass fitting. Thus saving potential damage from the continued tightening of the fitting into the aluminum body itself.

M10 stock Wilwood shown on the top row:




**The lowers are 1/8npt which you will find in some of the other calipers such as the DP6 on 13" kits, the FSL on our race kit, and the FNSL4 used in the 14" front kit.

 

Update: So I spent all of Saturday hand wash and waxing the car including windows and running other errands that I never got around to installing the brakes which was the most important thing to do. So I really got my moneys worth out of this last set. Even with the car all waxed and looking gorgeous and with the great weather I forgot to take a pic. I'm a potato.

Weather was on the cold side for Texas at around 48 deg and there was some wind coming off the Gulf that made it seem colder.

I ran with the Bronze group which included a Porsche Cayman, a Lotus Elise and a 700HP dodge muscle car. I was able to keep ahead of all, tho catching the Cayman proved to be the hardest. The muscle car was surprisingly capable in the turns given its heft and the driver was nice enough to lift on the straights to let me by.

They did not run a Silver group and the Gold group included a Corvette owned by the honey badger himself with Stoptech brakes larger than my wheels, some sort of Mercedes AMG that I think might have been grandfathered in and a take no prisoners Lotus Elise that I could not take my eyes off. Thing had tons of Carbon aero bits, a supercharger giving it 300HP gorgeous carbon race seats and an experienced driver who was doing 1min flat laps.

We ran in a clockwise full track configuration which is rarely done at GSS and I have only done on a sport bike so I took my time to learn the new line. I could easily have been bumped to Gold but considering my ancient brakes and that I needed to nurse the tires I opted to run a bit slower and show my friend in the lotus the line I was using.

I did not run a lap timer as the main point of the day was to have fun and see how the car handled with the new sway bar and bracing on. I know the Lotus was running 1:13s and I was several seconds faster. I would guess I was doing under 1:08. Based off his pace.

The instructor, owner of the dialed in Lotus pictured below, also did a ride along and said I was 90% of the way there. I like to think by 'there' he meant pissing excellence. But who knows.

I had the Hotchkis bar set on the medium setting and could have used a little more. Next track day I will run stiffest setting and see how that goes. The bracing added a more planted feel to the car. Particularly in the low speed stuff and a very fast change of direction low speed esse section.

I dont know when I will have the time but I need to get my new brakes put on. I also ordered a set of stainless steel lines from Detroit Tuned which should be here later this week. Madness has still not shipped my oil cooler, though it will be a couple more months before I really need it.

I have to do bullcrap family stuff for this coming holiday weekend so I wont have any time to work on the car. I am debating just dropping it off at a shop :/

Anyways thank you guys for all the pointers and interest. It really helps keep this project on the right track.

 

Ah what a beautiful Lotus. I drove an Exige once. Was such a perfect size for my frame/build. What I would give to track one of those beasts one day. Hopefully he gave you some good pointers when he did the ride along. That's the thing about being a self taught driver is that you become appreciative of those willing to give you pointers and advice. I take whatever I can get. Have you done any bushing upgrades to the MINI yet? Or are you still running with the stock rubber ones? Seems like you're doing well out there so keep it up.

 

Ha yes he was able to point out two turns where I needed to be apexing later and then showed me a different way of going thru the sweepers. I am not sure which way was faster but would like to explore if I had better datalogging. My way felt smoother but his felt faster but that is just the buttdyno-gps-gforce-majiggy ... but smooth is fast right ??

Yes I have WMW race control arm bushings and some powerflex race sway bar bushings on the bday list. Will see if my friends and family pull thru