Absolute Autox run times of MC versus MCS
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1st Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Houston
For those of you familiar with the MC and MCS in autocross, is there evidence that the absolute times of the MC are actually better than the MCS?
I know that the MC is better classed and is doing quite well in H-stock across the country, but I assumed that because of its greater overall power, the MCS is still a slightly faster autocrosser. However, from what I've seen of a few events, it looks like because of the delay in supercharger power in the MCS and its slightly heavier weight, the MCS is actually a slower autocrosser.
any comments?
many thanks
dave
I know that the MC is better classed and is doing quite well in H-stock across the country, but I assumed that because of its greater overall power, the MCS is still a slightly faster autocrosser. However, from what I've seen of a few events, it looks like because of the delay in supercharger power in the MCS and its slightly heavier weight, the MCS is actually a slower autocrosser.
any comments?
many thanks
dave
6th Gear
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From: Dunedin, FL, USA
From every one I've seen the S does better than the Cooper, but this may also be due to the S owners putting more into thier cars like tires and suspension, than it does with raw power.
The images are too big to post, but here are some Cooper S and Cooper times from a recent event at Ocala Grand Prix, which is a 6/10 mile track with sharp turns and short straights much like those of an autocross.
Also you can check out the times at one of the other events I attend, Sunriders Autocross here, though I rarely recall seeing any Coopers.
Not to offend any Cooper owners (cause I love you too) but in general, with equally matched drivers & tires, the S is quicker. I will admit however, being an amature driver, I have been to more than one event where I have seen a Cooper get better times than me and other S drivers.
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The images are too big to post, but here are some Cooper S and Cooper times from a recent event at Ocala Grand Prix, which is a 6/10 mile track with sharp turns and short straights much like those of an autocross.
Also you can check out the times at one of the other events I attend, Sunriders Autocross here, though I rarely recall seeing any Coopers.
Not to offend any Cooper owners (cause I love you too) but in general, with equally matched drivers & tires, the S is quicker. I will admit however, being an amature driver, I have been to more than one event where I have seen a Cooper get better times than me and other S drivers.
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North American Motoring :: Founder
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From: Colorado
This is a difficult question to answer for a couple of reasons.
1) Each car (even the same model) has a slightly different feel and setup (especially differences from the factory in the suspensions)
2) A single driver, can usually get two different (but similar) cars close to running the exact same line on a course, but they are never identical. When autocrossing that is the usual tenth there, ten here effect.
I don't know about GS but mid-year HS (aka Mark Chiles) was running faster times than STX built Cooper S. At Nationals this year this may have also been the case but HS got to run in completely dry conditions where STX had one day of ran.
As with most other cars...put the right driver in a Cooper, prep the car really well, have a lot of seat time, and it will be faster than a Cooper S. If I were to build a MINI again to autocross I would probably go with a Cooper as the power of the Cooper S aggrevates inside front wheel spin due to the lack of limited slip (for stock classes).
PS - Be sure to check out the new SCCA Solo2 and Pro forums that I just added to the site. I haven't formally introduced them yet but we should be able to get some good discussion going there.
Mark
1) Each car (even the same model) has a slightly different feel and setup (especially differences from the factory in the suspensions)
2) A single driver, can usually get two different (but similar) cars close to running the exact same line on a course, but they are never identical. When autocrossing that is the usual tenth there, ten here effect.
I don't know about GS but mid-year HS (aka Mark Chiles) was running faster times than STX built Cooper S. At Nationals this year this may have also been the case but HS got to run in completely dry conditions where STX had one day of ran.
As with most other cars...put the right driver in a Cooper, prep the car really well, have a lot of seat time, and it will be faster than a Cooper S. If I were to build a MINI again to autocross I would probably go with a Cooper as the power of the Cooper S aggrevates inside front wheel spin due to the lack of limited slip (for stock classes).
PS - Be sure to check out the new SCCA Solo2 and Pro forums that I just added to the site. I haven't formally introduced them yet but we should be able to get some good discussion going there.
Mark
3rd Gear
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From: Atlanta GA
overall given equal driving the MCS is faster on most courses... on a very tight course where the MCS could not make use of the added power the MC could be quicker... another thing is that a MCS is a little harder to drive in stock because it does not have a stock limited slip... so you have to be smoother on the throttle in the MCS in places where a regular Cooper can just stand on the gas.... In the end I have yet to be beaten by a MCS at any of the local Atlanta auto-X events.... the same cannot be said for events I have run at the Divisional or National level.... :smile:
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From: Dunedin, FL, USA
No, there is no MINI, even a JCW, that comes from the factory with limited slip. All MINIs do have equal length drive shafts though which aids in getting the power down in a straight line.
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1st Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Houston
Well if you look at the recent SCCA Nationals...for example....here's how it shook out:
G-Stock: Best MCS was Britt Laughlin who came in 4th out of 42 cars. His combined course1course2 time was 115.186
G-Stock Results
H-Stock: Best MC was Mark Chiles with 1st out of 30 cars. His best course1course2 time was 114.407.
H-Stock Results
If you had put Britt into H-stock, he would have come in 5th place.
This is just one event and not necessarily representative, but it is nationals and a pretty good test of driver and car.
(remember, I'm the one who had just ordered the MCS!)
G-Stock: Best MCS was Britt Laughlin who came in 4th out of 42 cars. His combined course1course2 time was 115.186
G-Stock Results
H-Stock: Best MC was Mark Chiles with 1st out of 30 cars. His best course1course2 time was 114.407.
H-Stock Results
If you had put Britt into H-stock, he would have come in 5th place.
This is just one event and not necessarily representative, but it is nationals and a pretty good test of driver and car.
(remember, I'm the one who had just ordered the MCS!)
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: New Jersey
It would really come down to driver skill. The only way to know for sure would be to have the same driver drive both an MC and an MCS through the same course. Mods such as shocks, etc. would also make a difference and make it impossible to really compare.
Horsepower doesn't matter as much in auto X. MC may be closer or better than MCS due to smaller wheels. It the auto X was a high speed auto x that would probaly benefit the MCS and a tight slow auto X would probably benefit the MC.
Horsepower doesn't matter as much in auto X. MC may be closer or better than MCS due to smaller wheels. It the auto X was a high speed auto x that would probaly benefit the MCS and a tight slow auto X would probably benefit the MC.
North American Motoring :: Founder
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From: Colorado
>>Am I understanding this right? The MC DOES have the limited slip?
Sorry to create the confusion regarding the limited slip. For the Cooper with its lower power output and lack of low-end torque in both versions tight low-speed turns don't tend to create as much inside wheel spin in the Cooper as the Cooper S. My experience (and I am no expert) is that just as you start applying power from a tight low-speed turn boost from the supercharger kicked in an made inside wheel spin a problem. That said I solved it by spending the money for the LSD and install in my Cooper S. To be honest I don't think it made me any faster as I should have spent more time on technique (especially after having Bob Tunnell (multi-time National SCCA Solo 2 and current Pro Solo SM champ) drive my car with the same setup and he was two seconds faster
Sorry to create the confusion regarding the limited slip. For the Cooper with its lower power output and lack of low-end torque in both versions tight low-speed turns don't tend to create as much inside wheel spin in the Cooper as the Cooper S. My experience (and I am no expert) is that just as you start applying power from a tight low-speed turn boost from the supercharger kicked in an made inside wheel spin a problem. That said I solved it by spending the money for the LSD and install in my Cooper S. To be honest I don't think it made me any faster as I should have spent more time on technique (especially after having Bob Tunnell (multi-time National SCCA Solo 2 and current Pro Solo SM champ) drive my car with the same setup and he was two seconds faster
5th Gear
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From: Seattle
>>G-Stock: Best MCS was Britt Laughlin who came in 4th out of 42 cars. His combined course1course2 time was 115.186
>>
>>H-Stock: Best MC was Mark Chiles with 1st out of 30 cars. His best course1course2 time was 114.407.
>>
But it rained on Thursday for Brit's first runs... If you just look at the times for the course both G and H Stock ran in the dry, The MCS beat the MC by about 0.7 secs.
Given equal driver talent and equally set-up cars the MCS is faster than the MC. That's why they are in different classes. :smile:
>>
>>H-Stock: Best MC was Mark Chiles with 1st out of 30 cars. His best course1course2 time was 114.407.
>>
But it rained on Thursday for Brit's first runs... If you just look at the times for the course both G and H Stock ran in the dry, The MCS beat the MC by about 0.7 secs.
Given equal driver talent and equally set-up cars the MCS is faster than the MC. That's why they are in different classes. :smile:
2nd Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Georgetown, KY
YMMV on this one. I was at our local AutoX and beat 4 'S' Models w/race tires in my base Cooper w/All-Season Contis :smile:
Obviously, this doesn't mean my car's faster than theirs: I just had the course figured-out better for my car's setup than they had theirs. (We were all novices, too...)
Still, the 'S', lacking a LSD, doesn't have that great of an advantage over a SS+ suspension Cooper. They can't get the power-down on corner exit any better than base Coopers.
Obviously, this doesn't mean my car's faster than theirs: I just had the course figured-out better for my car's setup than they had theirs. (We were all novices, too...)
Still, the 'S', lacking a LSD, doesn't have that great of an advantage over a SS+ suspension Cooper. They can't get the power-down on corner exit any better than base Coopers.
2nd Gear
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From: Olympia, WA
Drivers make the biggest difference as far as fastest times go, but course design can play a huge role. In the NW region, our courses generally have an uphill portion. That takes up about half of the course. In my MCS, I can beat even a much more experienced driver simply because I can power up the hill. The Cooper can not do this. I am driving a Cooper this year and hope to learn about speed maintenance in the corners. That seems to me where my shortcomings as a driver are most evident. When I return to the MCS the next year, I hope to be faster than ever.
Abe
Abe
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From: Washington DC area
Hey, this is all good stuff. Now I don't feel so bad in my MC. Mine's got the CVT though, so that should be a bit slower than 5-speed. On a similar note, there's an article in the December issue of mini magazine (about the orig mini) where they interviewed presenter Jeremy Clarkson. He talked about both the orig and new mini. On comparing the two he said:
"We raced them on a go-cart track two years ago, new and old, and the old one was actually much faster. It had much better under-steer as well."
Well, I have been wondering which was the better handler. It may be that the shorter and tighter the track with more curves, the faster the smaller mini will be. For example, on a short go-kart track, the orig mini is king, and as the track gets bigger, then the MC and MCS may be faster as they are more powerful. They are more powerful aren't they, i.e., faster? I guess they would be but not sure.
For Your Info: The article mentioned that Jeremy Clarkson does a Christmas video every year for 8 years now and has a new video out (DVD), where he picked 30 cars of 2003 and he selects the best within their categories, and one overall winner. He would not say who won overall title, but said the new MINI won its group. He likes the original mini better, though.
"We raced them on a go-cart track two years ago, new and old, and the old one was actually much faster. It had much better under-steer as well."
Well, I have been wondering which was the better handler. It may be that the shorter and tighter the track with more curves, the faster the smaller mini will be. For example, on a short go-kart track, the orig mini is king, and as the track gets bigger, then the MC and MCS may be faster as they are more powerful. They are more powerful aren't they, i.e., faster? I guess they would be but not sure.
For Your Info: The article mentioned that Jeremy Clarkson does a Christmas video every year for 8 years now and has a new video out (DVD), where he picked 30 cars of 2003 and he selects the best within their categories, and one overall winner. He would not say who won overall title, but said the new MINI won its group. He likes the original mini better, though.
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 243
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From: San Diego
Great discussion. What really matters first and foremost is driver skill. After that,
The S in G Stock suffers from wheel spin powering out of corners but gets to wear sticky R compound tires.
The S in STX gets a LSD that helps it put down the power but has to run street tires -- and the suspension tweaks help some but are not the dominant factor
The MC in H stock does not have as much power but that is an advantage especially on tight courses AND it gets to run R compounds.
The S in DSP gets the LSD, the Suspension tweaks, other goodies (Flywheel, clutch), AND gets to Run wider (than stock) wheels & R Compound tires
As discussed the comparisons of times at the Solo II Nationals show the MC in H stock as the fastest, followed by the S in GS, and the S in STX. However, STX had to run in the rain on the south course.
When you look at the Pro Solo Finale results the fastest S in STX was faster by about 1.5 seconds than the fastest (and winning) MC in H Stock
The S in G Stock suffers from wheel spin powering out of corners but gets to wear sticky R compound tires.
The S in STX gets a LSD that helps it put down the power but has to run street tires -- and the suspension tweaks help some but are not the dominant factor
The MC in H stock does not have as much power but that is an advantage especially on tight courses AND it gets to run R compounds.
The S in DSP gets the LSD, the Suspension tweaks, other goodies (Flywheel, clutch), AND gets to Run wider (than stock) wheels & R Compound tires
As discussed the comparisons of times at the Solo II Nationals show the MC in H stock as the fastest, followed by the S in GS, and the S in STX. However, STX had to run in the rain on the south course.
When you look at the Pro Solo Finale results the fastest S in STX was faster by about 1.5 seconds than the fastest (and winning) MC in H Stock
1st Gear
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From: Florida
I think I might help shed a little light on this. I competed at the Gulf Coast Autocrossers season opener in Ft. Myers, Florida last weekend. Mark Chiles was competing in the Pro class in a Cooper S. He did three runs in the MCS with a best time of 66.666. On his fourth run he drove his old car, the red Cooper that he won at the Nationals with, and ran a 66.980. Just over three tenths slower - not that much difference. On corrected times using the PAX system, he took FTD. He wasn't far off of FTD uncorrected either. He was several seconds faster than the STS and STX cars in "stock" class cars.
I took first in GS Novice with a 73.969. When I start feeling cocky I just look at Mark and realize that I still have a lot to learn...
Tom
I took first in GS Novice with a 73.969. When I start feeling cocky I just look at Mark and realize that I still have a lot to learn...
Tom
3rd Gear
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From: Houston
I was searching the archives over on SCCA Forums yesterday and came across a similar discussion. The post was about moving the MCS to GS but they got around to discussing the differences between the MCS and MC. On this subject Garfield stated (apologies to Garfield if I misquote here) that the MC and MCS handling are basically identical and that on many courses the extra horsepower is of little use. You just end up spinning your inside tire coming off a corner. In some ways the MC is easier to drive because you can keep your foot in it.
This makes a lot of sense. With that in mind, other than tires I will forgo the usual K&N and exhaust mod and go for a harness next. Now if I could just tighten the nut behind the wheel.
Here is a link if you are interested.
This makes a lot of sense. With that in mind, other than tires I will forgo the usual K&N and exhaust mod and go for a harness next. Now if I could just tighten the nut behind the wheel.
Here is a link if you are interested.
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1st Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Houston
Well, the overall concensus seems to suggest that the MC is a pretty good autox car.
I've changed my order to a Chili Red/Black Mini Cooper (tartan red). No sunroof. I've even got a production number!
now the next big question.....which wheels and R-tires for the MC??
I've changed my order to a Chili Red/Black Mini Cooper (tartan red). No sunroof. I've even got a production number!
now the next big question.....which wheels and R-tires for the MC??
4th Gear
Joined: May 2003
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>>Well, the overall concensus seems to suggest that the MC is a pretty good autox car.
>>
>>I've changed my order to a Chili Red/Black Mini Cooper (tartan red). No sunroof. I've even got a production number!
>>
>>now the next big question.....which wheels and R-tires for the MC??
>>
>>
No, don't do it! You changed your order from an MCS to an MC? Not to say their is anything wrong with an MC, they are great but I would only buy one if you are going to be satisfied with the power that it has. If you really want better acceleration performance and more options for future engine enhancements I would be sure to start with the MCS. I've mentioned this before in other posts and I'll mention it again, when I priced my MCS and compared it to an MC it was $3,000 more for the MCS but here is what I got for that $3,000;
Engine with Forged internals
Supercharger
Dual Rear Center Exit Exhaust
6spd Getag instead of a 5spd
Fog lights
Xenon Headlights
Different Front bumper, rear bumper and sportier side skirts
Leather not Leatheret
Automatic AC
Trip Computer
Radio Controls on Steering wheel
Sunroof
Chrome Gas Cap and body side turn signals
Rear Spoiler
I think there was more but I can't think of them now. Many of these items may not be important to you but I just wanted to point out what you get for $3,000. Making the MCS a really good deal for what you get for you money. Most aftermaket turbo kits or Superchargers kits alone run $3,000+. So I would seriously look at a striped down MCS, at least you would get the forged engine, Superchager and 6spd transmisson and have more options for increasing the performance even more. It may not make that much difference on an autox track but it sure makes a difference on the street.
I considered getting the MC when I bought mine and figured I could always add performance products to it to increase the HP at or above the MCS but it didn't make sense for the money. I would have had to spend more than the difference just to get a turbor or SC kit and I wouldn't have the forged engine, 6spd and better exhaust.
>>
>>I've changed my order to a Chili Red/Black Mini Cooper (tartan red). No sunroof. I've even got a production number!
>>
>>now the next big question.....which wheels and R-tires for the MC??
>>
>>
No, don't do it! You changed your order from an MCS to an MC? Not to say their is anything wrong with an MC, they are great but I would only buy one if you are going to be satisfied with the power that it has. If you really want better acceleration performance and more options for future engine enhancements I would be sure to start with the MCS. I've mentioned this before in other posts and I'll mention it again, when I priced my MCS and compared it to an MC it was $3,000 more for the MCS but here is what I got for that $3,000;
Engine with Forged internals
Supercharger
Dual Rear Center Exit Exhaust
6spd Getag instead of a 5spd
Fog lights
Xenon Headlights
Different Front bumper, rear bumper and sportier side skirts
Leather not Leatheret
Automatic AC
Trip Computer
Radio Controls on Steering wheel
Sunroof
Chrome Gas Cap and body side turn signals
Rear Spoiler
I think there was more but I can't think of them now. Many of these items may not be important to you but I just wanted to point out what you get for $3,000. Making the MCS a really good deal for what you get for you money. Most aftermaket turbo kits or Superchargers kits alone run $3,000+. So I would seriously look at a striped down MCS, at least you would get the forged engine, Superchager and 6spd transmisson and have more options for increasing the performance even more. It may not make that much difference on an autox track but it sure makes a difference on the street.
I considered getting the MC when I bought mine and figured I could always add performance products to it to increase the HP at or above the MCS but it didn't make sense for the money. I would have had to spend more than the difference just to get a turbor or SC kit and I wouldn't have the forged engine, 6spd and better exhaust.
4th Gear
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From: Stuttgart Germany
MoFast- Get your R compounds from Hoosier Tom. Wheels (stock class legal) from cheap to expensive- Used x Lites (check the market place here and MINI2 classifieds), AK Monzas, or SSR Comp Rs ask for Alex.
The reason to go with a Cooper over an MCS for Solo 2 is the Cooper is an overdog in the class. You are not fighting an uphill battle before you spend any money on mods. I have seen a Cooper beat a MCS on the same course, on the same day. Petersburg ProSolo
Chris
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The reason to go with a Cooper over an MCS for Solo 2 is the Cooper is an overdog in the class. You are not fighting an uphill battle before you spend any money on mods. I have seen a Cooper beat a MCS on the same course, on the same day. Petersburg ProSolo
Chris
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3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 243
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From: San Diego
>>MoFast- Get your R compounds from Hoosier Tom. Wheels (stock class legal) from cheap to expensive- Used x Lites (check the market place here and MINI2 classifieds), AK Monzas, or SSR Comp Rs ask for Alex.
>>The reason to go with a Cooper over an MCS for Solo 2 is the Cooper is an overdog in the class. You are not fighting an uphill battle before you spend any money on mods. I have seen a Cooper beat a MCS on the same course, on the same day. Petersburg ProSolo
>>Chris
Was that a GS S or an STX S that the MC beat at Petersburg? If it was the STX S - please remember that everyone was still learning how to set them up then. Oh and the rain.....
David
PS Good luck in Phoenix
>>The reason to go with a Cooper over an MCS for Solo 2 is the Cooper is an overdog in the class. You are not fighting an uphill battle before you spend any money on mods. I have seen a Cooper beat a MCS on the same course, on the same day. Petersburg ProSolo
>>Chris
Was that a GS S or an STX S that the MC beat at Petersburg? If it was the STX S - please remember that everyone was still learning how to set them up then. Oh and the rain.....
David
PS Good luck in Phoenix
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Bridgewater, NJ
No, don't do it! You changed your order from an MCS to an MC? Not to say their is anything wrong with an MC, they are great but I would only buy one if you are going to be satisfied with the power that it has. If you really want better acceleration performance and more options for future engine enhancements I would be sure to start with the MCS.
But if you really want power and acceleration, buy an older 911...