Is that the customers fault or the dealers fault? If dealers had a set price on things like most stores without all the hidden or manipulative ways they want to squeeze out some profit wouldn't everyone benefit? Going in most people EXPECT the dealer to give them a crappy deal. If the expectation was the dealer was going to give their best deal from the beginning maybe customers would believe it.

 

To emphasize your comment:
My favorite deal was on an Infiniti in 2010.
I contacted the internet department, he called back, and said, come in, Ill make you the deal of a lifetime.
I showed up 5 minutes before closing.
He printed out the numbers, and said, "the one you want just came off the truck, here's the price, I have too many clients to waste time haggling."
The price was $60 over the figure I had in my back pocket. No way I was going to fight that! And MY number was already outrageously low!!
5 minutes in his office, 10 minutes in F&I, but I had to wait till the morning for Prep, as the internet manager, and F&I manager stayed after hours to wait for me.

 

My best time at dealer was on a Ford Mustang.. I emailed them and said here is what I want and can do if you can do it fine if not don't waste mine our your time. I got email back and they said sure we can do that come on in. Of course it wasn't what we had talked about when I emailed but it was VERY close. I said hey these numbers aren't what we discussed and I cant get any kind of extended warranty at that price. I got up and was walking out when the finance guy ran out and said hey wait we will give you a free extended warranty. I took that deal because the mustang I was trading was a horrible car(was yellow and was perfect color as it was a lemon).

 

I was totally tempted to let Zillon make me an offer and fly in and road trip from NJ to Tx with the new car. :D

 

I bought my GP2 that way - struck a deal with a dealer in Chicago, including trade, and drove out to get it. This was before I worked at Princeton.

Miss that car.

 

Well I ordered on Monday and my car is now already in production. Hope I get it before my birthday in mid October.

 

So, you are ready to buy today. You've done the research. You've test-driven cars. You've scanned local inventory and there's your car, on the dealer's lot. You are ready to say yes and drive it home today if you can agree on terms with the dealer.

You have calculated invoice. You've also been stalking this car and you know it's been on the dealer's lot for over 60 days.

You know the advertised incentives and you know your credit score qualifies you for top tier finance rates, and you know what the best nationally advertised APR from the manufacturer is.

You know what Carmax will pay you for your current car and you have it in writing, ready to show the MINI dealer if they come in below Carmax.

You call the MINI dealer, tell the MA you will be there at 2:00 Tuesday to look at the car, test drive it, and if the car is the one, you are prepared to purchase then.

At 1:00 on Tuesday you call the MA to confirm your 2:00 appointment and you tell him to have the car ready for you to see and drive. You tell him you will be bringing you trade for them to evaluate while you are on the test drive. You tell him you have an offer from Carmax for your trade which you will be glad to show him AFTER his people come up with their number.

During the walk-around and the test drive, you gently deflect all the trial close questions, focusing on how the car feels and sounds.

Upon returning from the drive, you look the MA dead in the eye and say, "Yep. This is the one. If you can get me the deal I need I'm ready to go."

At this point you are at the divergence of two paths. You can say, "Put together your most aggressive offer and let's see where we are." Or you can just lay out your dream, super-aggressive offer which, based on your research and understanding of the current market, would be a beyond killer deal.

Either way, we are in "first pencil" land and the sales manager is going to produce some numbers. They might be straight-ahead, easy to understand, or they may be complex, four square, through the looking glass, don't know which end is up numbers.

Doesn't matter. Do NOT criticize the dealer's first, or second, or third offer.

Just keep saying:

"That's a bit more than I'm prepared to go."

"At those numbers I'm going to have to reconsider. I'm prepared to buy that car today, but we need to get the terms into my comfort zone."

At some point, hopefully sooner rather than later, the MA or the Sales Manager, or sombody will have asked you, "What do we need to do to get you into this car today?"

You, of course, being in the Zen space, have ignored all of the brow-beating coming from the sales team about how their offer is aggressive and how they never sell a car like this for such a low price, or whatever.

You have been a broken record. And, hopefully early-on in the process, you have produced your numbers and have said,slowly and clearly, exactly the terms to which you will say yes. And you have continued to hang tough, saying you are ready to go at your terms and they need to get there for you to sign.

If the dealer gets close, and the deal you are about to approve is within your comfort zone, and it is a COMPLETE deal, including trade value, monthly payment, down payment/drive-off cost, any options or add-ons like warranties or protection or racing stripes or wheel locks or whatever, then you get to say yes.

If the dealer can't get close, you are at a wonderful choice point. You can accept their best offer and be done. You can thank them for their time and say you need to think about it, repeating that their best numbers are higher than you are prepared to go. You can thank them for their time and tell them that, as much as you want to do the deal, and as much of everyone's time as has been spent, it looks like you will need to do more shopping, and then you get up and start to walk. If they let you walk, then they are telling you they won't/can't meet your terms. SO DON'T WALK unless you are prepared to not get that car.

But, under no circumstances should you criticize the dealer's offers. Just don't accept the offer if you think you can do better. Just keep thanking them and telling them they need to get closer to where you are if they want to sell you the car.

It all depends on the value of your time and the extent of your patience. Car dealers have all the time in the world to wait you out. If you have a little longer than they do, you might score. AND, if you are reasonable and understand when the dealer is as low as he/she can go, you might pay a little more than planned, but you WILL get a great deal if there is a great deal to be had.

 

I've seen a few sellers come on NAM and offer up Lease take-over cars. I've never really understood why a buyer would be interested in that unless someone had put a lot of cash down on the deal and was not looking to get that back.

What am I missing in these transactions?

 

Excellent question!

There is a big lease takeover marketplace. Several web sites are dedicated to it, like swapalease and leasetrader. Check them out.

You will find many people needing to get out of leases on really nice cars. Sometimes incentives are offered as an incitement to get someone to take over a lease. Just like a boat sitting in a slip, costing money every month, a leased car gets very costy when a person needs to get out but is locked into the monthly payments.

If a person knows they will go way over allowed lease mileage, they want to get out.

If there's a job loss or overseas job transfer, they need to get out.

Divorce or financial reversal is another biggie.

Sometimes people just want a different car and offering a couple of grand to someone to take over a lease is less of a financial hit than selling the car back to a dealer at wholesale or selling it privately because there aren't that many private buyers who can self-finance a private deal for the big dollars sometimes involved.

Just a few weeks ago there was a 2017 JCW convertible on swapalease. Fully loaded, stunning colors and features, with just a few thousand miles. Basically a new car. A person snagged that car, saving all the drive off fees and a $1,300 incentive to take the lease over.

Remember, subvented lease deals mean the manufacturer has inflated the residual value to get the monthly lease cost down. A person entering into a lease contract has, in fact, agreed to pay that inflated residual value at lease end or turn in the car. So, when someone wants to get out of a lease and finds out how much they need to pay the leasing company, it's usually a number waaay larger than the car is worth in the current marketplace.

BMWFS/MINI Financial helps its customers transfer leases every day.

There you have it.

 

Dealers have too much inventory and boats are on the way from MINI-land with more.

If a motorer is in the market for a new or near-new MINI, this weekend would be a moment to snag a deal.

Are ya feelin' lucky?? Here's the gamble. Each month MINI announces the new factory-sponsored programs. Special offers can change, including interest rates/money factors, rebates, customer cash, dealer cash, and discounts.

But the sales numbers suggest there are too many MINIs chasing too few buyers.

So hunt dealer inventory. Find your MINI. Crunch the numbers hard. Test the bottom. Be shameless. Let the deals come to you.

And report back to us and brag.

 

So, in BMW-land there are rumors that BMWNA is putting up a little more incentive for Labor Day weekend on some slower movers.

No idea what MINI marketing gurus are up to, but one has to believe this is a moment they want to move some metal.

Anyone out there feeling like the deals are getting more aggressive these days?

 

There should be deals, MINI shoppers.

 

For those thinking about snagging a pre-owned MINI, here's the sales info:

MINI Pre-Owned Vehicles
In August, MINI Certified Pre-Owned sold 984 vehicles, a decrease of 22.3 percent from August 2016.
Total MINI Pre-Owned sold 2,694 vehicles in August 2017, a decrease of 2.8 percent from August 2016.
Total MINI Pre-Owned sales year-to-date were 21,002, a 10.1 percent increase from the first eight months of 2016.

 

Ouch. It must suck to be a MINI Motoring Advisor right now.

I can't imagine that the buckle-and-diming of MINI USA isn't a factor here. From obvious cost cutting of $10 parts like the driver side sun visor, the "secret" storage compartment and glove box cooling air duct (which are noticed by Lon time repeat MINI buyers) to charging extra for every paint color (Pepper White is the only no-cost color now!) to overloading the Countryman base model to drive up its price to tying NBT features like Apple Airplay to premium models (not available in hardtop, only Clubman and Countryman)... well, it's clear someone at MINI/BMW is trying to squeeze milk from a shrinking stone. They're in danger of creating a viscous cycle of lower value per dollar (on a brand which already offers poor value) resulting in lower sales resulting in more squeezing and poorer value...

And what is with BMW's tanking 7-series sales? I thought 7-series buyers were all in the 1%, immune to economic bobbles.

 

http://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2...autosales.html

You need to look at the car market in general. Just looking at MINI & BMW makes you think they are sinking alone while all other cars are selling like hotcakes. Ain't so.

 

General Motors had a better-than-expected August. Ford and GM might have a few good months with an anticipated spike in truck sales to replace flood losses in Texas. But today's Labor Day newspaper ads are showing $10,000 discounts on offer for some domestics.

So sales numbers are part of the story -- what manufacturers are paying to get those sales is another matter.

And in BMW/MINI world, it would be reasonable to assume there is, or soon will be, increased quiet, back-end support so dealers can cut prices and still make money on weaker overall sales.

Having said ALL that, bratling has a good point -- MA's make it on volume. If the deals are thin, then they only get minimum commission/unit and if volume drops, the volume bonuses disappear, on top of the overall lower gross profit. So, while the sales manager might be willing to cut a thin deal, the poor MA, if gross isn't held, watches the food yanked from the table.

But, as buyers, there are opportunities. How willing MA's will be to cut their own income just to make a sale, who knows??

 

Well, for better or worse... this will be my last month as a MA and it's not my choice.

Princeton MINI will be closing at the end of September.

Come see me while you still can, fellas.

 

This is sad news indeed Zillon. Sad for you, for the dealership, for the brand and, of course, for all of us who have benefited from your candid insights.

Let us know where you land and please keep participating in the forum. You're always welcome here.

Thanks.

 

I'll likely be sliding over to the BMW store.

I'm in the middle of buying a house (oh, the timing) - and doing that would maintain my employment continuity, and while it'd be a different customer, I know the BMW product range well.

It's just sad.

 

So what happens to all the MINI's on your lot? Perhaps you can take them with you over to the BMW store and start your own little sub-business under the BMW umbrella

Regarding your upcoming house acquisition. Congratulations and remember, it's a conspiracy against the buyer!! The buyer brings the money to the house deal, just as in a car deal, so the entire process has been refined by Realtors and escrow people and title people and lawyers to create as much tension within the buyer as possible so that the buyer is so anxious about whether or not the deal will close that they roll over on all the fees that third parties attach to the deal. Nobody gets paid, including the Realtor supposedly representing your interests, until you bring the money. So, you have all the leverage and, thus, the system is designed to dis-empower you at every turn. Challenge every added cost, ask if it can be lowered. And enjoy your new home. (Nice to be on the buyer's side for a change, isn't it? Enjoy the ride!!)

 

Your view of realtors is possibly true in many cases, but my wife would argue the point. She is 100% focused on her clients getting the best possible result and is in no way happy to put someone into a house or situation that they aren't completely comfortable with.

If you get a mortgage you are pretty much going to play the game as the lender wants it played and nothing is going to change from the standard contract. I don't think there is much negotiating on the fees involved, but I would love to hear which ones are possible.

The thing that irks me and my wife as well is the transactions where the Realtor represents both sides in a transaction. She won't do it and frankly I can't see how that is even legal but it does happen.

Back to MINI... I think Zillons employer has more than one MINI store, so moving cars is probably pretty simple.

 

All of the MINIs will be either sent back to corporate and disseminated amongst the region, or sent to our other NJ location, Mt. Laurel.

I'll still be able to sell pre-owned MINIs from the BMW store, so there's that on my side.

In regards to the house purchase, I don't disagree - but on the bright side, I've made out pretty well so far in my transaction. I was able to get the seller to cough up quite a bit to make the deal happen.

Closing costs are the killer, however I've negotiated where I can (attorney fees, survey fees, etc.).

Also, my realtor has been fantastic - she's earned every bit of commission she'll earn off of this deal.

Dual agency is a difficult situation, and I would absolutely request a new agent in that case.

 

You are absolutely correct that there are some buyer's agents who do an outstanding job of representing their clients' interests. I'm sure, Moocher, your wife has seen plenty of nonsense and things that have offended her personally and professionally. The good ones always suffer.

It's not so much my view of Realtors, but rather my observation of the entire process, which, as I mentioned, is truly a "conspiracy" against the buyer.

Here in Southern California, where for years almost every broker had a real estate training "school" as a way to build a stable of indentured realtors, it is pretty nuts. Too many realtors chasing too few deals, and many, many agents not at all in possession of the skills or ethics necessary to manage what in this region are very often million dollar deals.

I remember well a deal when my parents were working with an agent representing them as buyers. My parents instructed their agent to present their offer and the agent's first response was, "Could you go a bit higher?" Not, "this is a very competitive market and if you really want this property I suggest you strengthen your offer by $X." My father asked why the agent felt he should up his offer and she started talking about her commission!

Then there was the time we did a speculative purchase and I asked our Realtor to confirm that there was no asbestos in the attic insulation before we opened escrow. She came back two days later and said she'd had it inspected and there was no asbestos. We flipped the house and the buyer had an inspection and, surprise, the attic insulation was full of asbestos. We told our Realtor that we expected her to take care of whatever abatement was required and she said she would get us some bids. We "reframed" the issue for her and, after a couple of back and forths with the agent and her principal broker, they agreed to handle the abatement and all related costs. Turned out our agent had asked her termite guy to check out the attic insulation and, without doing any testing, he had rendered his opinion that there wasn't asbestos based on a quick visual inspection. He wrote "no asbestos in attic" on his report, so the Realtor, I assume, worked it out with him.

Then there was the time.... oh well, never mind. Let's just say, in all manner of transactions, cars or houses or whatever, the party who brings the money to the deal is well-advised to verify and look out for their own interests, regardless of who claims to be protecting that buyer's interests.

I'm sure Zillon will do fine. But if you think MINI dealers like to bump rates, let me tell ya about mortgage lenders......

 

Saturdays it's all college football all the time, and Sundays it's Pro Football from morning until bedtime. And baseball, for those who still follow it, is moving toward the playoffs.

How can a car dealer compete with that?

While a customer walking into a MINI dealership might be interrupting the sales team's game watching, the management will be happy to see a paying customer.

If you are shopping for a new MINI, and you've been following car sales data, you know things are slow and deals are there to be had. Serious deals. But you gotta ask and you gotta be ready to lock in and deal hard.

And just like in Football and Baseball, the game ain't over until it's over, so if you are negotiating a car deal, stay focused and play the entire game for the win.

 

Let’s say three years ago you leased a MINI for a screamingly low money factor and a ridiculously high residual which resulted in very low payments. A very happy deal… at the time.

Now, almost three years later, the lease is coming to an end in about 90 days. The odometer on your MINI says you’re 10,000 miles over the amount allowed in your lease contract. There’s a nasty chip on the windshield, a deep scrape on the bumper, a few parking lot door dings and a little curb rash on a couple of the wheels, and it needs 4 new run-flat tires.

And, of course, even if your leased MINI was in cream puff condition, due to the inflated residual, it’s still worth waaay less as a trade-in than the lease pay-off in your contract, so, basically, on paper it has less than zero trade-in value.

Well, you can walk away, pay the lease return fee, pay whatever the lease-end inspection report says you owe for the damage to the car, and buy the extra miles at the rate stated in your lease.

Or, you can give your problem to the dealer.

In a perverse way, you are in an advantaged position. You know the opportunity cost for walking away. $350 lease return fee plus the extra miles plus the new windshield plus the damage charge for the dents and scrapes, plus the cost of new tires. That’s your worst-case walk away number, part of the cost of ownership for three happy years and an extra 10,000 miles of motoring. Not the worst deal in the world.

Or, you can say to your MINI dealer, or your Mazda dealer, or your BMW dealer or your Ford dealer, or whatever dealer has what you hope will be your next car, “I know it will cost me $x,xxx to walk away from my lease. If you can get me into that shiny new Belchfire 300 you have on your lot for $yyy plus my MINI, I’m ready to do a deal today.”

All kidding aside, if you’re credit is good and you find the right next car that you want to drive and you know it’s a car that the dealer has some room to deal on, then give the dealer an opportunity to throw everything he has into a deal that allows you to drive off in a new car you want for less than it would cost you to simply pay MINI the charges and fees necessary for you to turn in your MINI and walk away.

And, of course, you are more likely to get a decent deal IF you stay in the MINI family and give a MINI dealer the chance to work magical numbers for you. Because the MINI dealer can buy your MINI from MINI Financial for less than the stated residual and can rehab your car and resell it on his MINI lot, and, maybe even make it a CPO, and maybe there’s some hidden money from MINI that the dealer can pull out of a hat to help offset some of the costs. Never know until you try.

The key to this is to assume you are in an advantaged position rather than assuming you’re buried. Doesn’t always work, but, on the right car, at the right dealer, with the right incentives, at the right time (as in end of the month and at least 2 months before your current lease ends), if you’re flexible as to which car will be your next car, there is often a favorable deal out there waiting for you.

The trick here, as is the case in any car deal, is never go into a dealer begging. Always go in assuming you are giving the dealer an opportunity to make a sale and move a unit. Because you are, even if your situation is… complicated.