I confess........I only got the rear fogs so I wouldn't have a blank toggle switch hole.

I want to install an aftermarket set of driving lights. I never really foresee needing rear fogs so is there a way I can use the rear switch to control the extra front lights?

I'd prefer to not have another switch clutter up the dash.

 

If you don't mind having the rear fogs come on with the extra front lights, then it's almost trivial.

Just install the new lights with their own dedicated power wire, and put a relay in the new power wire. Wire the relay so that it's activated when the rear fogs come on. The relay will only draw a few milliamps of extra current from the rear fog wiring, so you don't have to worry about blowing any fuses or damaging the factory wiring.

What you're looking for is a standard Bosch SPDT relay - available at just about any auto parts shop for a few bucks. Terminal #30 on the relay gets connected to the car's battery via a heavy-gauge fused wire. Terminal #86 taps into the rear fog light wiring so that it gets +12 volts when the rear fogs are on. Terminal #85 on the relay is grounded, and terminal #87 goes to the new lights.

 

However, the rear fogs will only go on with low beams or front fogs, so the configuration wouldn't allow high beams and driving lights at the same time.

Edit: not necessarily true, was based on my interpretation of the Owner's Manual. See following posts.

 

(this post rendered obsolete & possibly confusing by subsequent posts)

 

Really? I had NEVER heard this about the rear fog before... I knew the front fogs worked that way... but that seems like an anti-safety feature for the rear fog... so if I'm stupid enough to leave my high beams on in a fog bank, I get rear ended by a semi... real smart engineering...

**** I was in such disbelief that I went out and tested it. On my car the rear fog works just fine with high beams. It's only the front fogs that turn off when the high beams come on.

So, rear fog will get power:
* When low beams are on
* When parking lights and front fogs are on
* When high beams are on
* NOT when only parking lights are on.
* NOT when all lights are off.

So Scott's relay approach would enable aux front fogs to work when you have any other front lights on...

 

Well then, Scott's approach should work pretty well. Sorry if my post caused confusion! I posted based on my interpretation of the Owner's Manual, not checking directly.

 

Just beware if you run across a police officer that is in a bad mood then you may very well get ticketed.

It is illegal to have both fog light and high beams on at the same time under federal law. This is why the front fog lights go off when the high beams turn on.

 

that's really interesting do u know what the reasoning behind this law is? is it just the idea of the fogs not being necessary when high beams are on? or is it maybe an overwhelming amount of light coming from your car?

just curious

-Hutch-

 

I believe some states' laws define the maximum number of front-facing lights you can have on at once, for on-road use. I'm not aware of a "federal law" about this... though there are many state laws, not all of which are in agreement as far as I know. Nor have I seen any laws that specifically state "no fog lights and high beams at the same time"...

Here's Virginia's:
Here's North Carolina's - no mention of fog lights in the code at all, just auxiliary driving lights:
Your state DMV website should provide access to your state's motor vehicle code... take 10 minutes and I'll bet you can find out EXACTLY what the law is in your state...

 

Actually the law does not state "Fog Lights" or "Driving Lights"

But it does state that there are only certian circumstances when a light can remain on when the High Beams are on. The expeicit text is very long and confusing.

What it comes down to is this:

if the high beams are on all contributing light to the front of the car except parking and signal lights must come from

1. the same illumination reflector

or

2. be directly connected to the high beam reflector

As is the case with Fog or Driving lights neither is the case so they can not be on when the high beams are on.

So no matter how much more restrictive the state law the fog/driving lights can not be on when the high beams are on.

 

I'd love to see the text of this federal law. Because the way you just described it, it sounds like this prohibits auxiliary driving lights, unless "directly connected to the high beam reflector" implies a "direct" electrical connection... which also isn't very clear, since technically the "reflector" doesn't connect electrically to anything... the bulb does...

It would also imply that the OEM MINI driving lights violate federal law, because they function in addition to the high beams (actually, on xenon equipped 1st gen MINIs, the high beams AND low beams, since low beams stay on when you turn on the high beams).

That said, the NC statute DOES explicitly allow driving lights IN ADDITION TO the high beams... and also specifies "at least two" headlights be on at one time, but does not cite a maximum number on at one time.

I'd also like to understand the jurisdiction where this federal law applies - to auto manufacturers? To vehicles operating on US public roadways? On federal property? etc.... since my understanding is that the states establish motor vehicle laws for each respective state...

I'm just trying to understand this better, if I'm in error here... Always open to learning more stuff...

 

I do not mean to argue with you but actually part of your statement here is not true. Although it does not actually state the number of primary headlamps.

NC law does provide for auxiliary driving lights, but does limit it to two.

§ 20‑130. Additional permissible light on vehicle.
(b) Auxiliary Driving Lamps. – Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not to exceed two auxiliary driving lamps mounted on the front, and every such auxiliary driving lamp or lamps shall meet the requirements and limitations set forth in G.S. 20‑131, subsection (c).

So from this it sounds to me like you can not have fog lights and driving lights fitted on the same vehicle.

It also states that light from auxiliary lights may be subsituted for the lights to illuminate the road way but does not explicitly state that they can be use in conjunction with the dimmed (low beam) headlamps.

§ 20‑131. Requirements as to headlamps and auxiliary driving lamps.
(a) The headlamps of motor vehicles shall be so constructed, arranged, and adjusted that, except as provided in subsection (c) of this section, they will at all times mentioned in G.S. 20‑129, and under normal atmospheric conditions and on a level road, produce a driving light sufficient to render clearly discernible a person 200 feet ahead, but any person operating a motor vehicle upon the highways, when meeting another vehicle, shall so control the lights of the vehicle operated by him by shifting, depressing, deflecting, tilting, or dimming the headlight beams in such manner as shall not project a glaring or dazzling light to persons within a distance of 500 feet in front of such headlamp. Every new motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle or motor‑driven cycle, registered in this State after January 1, 1956, which has multiple‑beam road‑ lighting equipment shall be equipped with a beam indicator, which shall be lighted whenever the uppermost distribution of light from the headlamps is in use, and shall not otherwise be lighted. Said indicator shall be so designed and located that when lighted it will be readily visible without glare to the driver of the vehicle so equipped.
(b) Headlamps shall be deemed to comply with the foregoing provisions prohibiting glaring and dazzling lights if none of the main bright portion of the headlamp beams rises above a horizontal plane passing through the lamp centers parallel to the level road upon which the loaded vehicle stands, and in no case higher than 42 inches, 75 feet ahead of the vehicle.
(c) Whenever a motor vehicle is being operated upon a highway, or portion thereof, which is sufficiently lighted to reveal a person on the highway at a distance of 200 feet ahead of the vehicle, it shall be permissible to dim the headlamps or to tilt the beams downward or to substitute therefor the light from an auxiliary driving lamp or pair of such lamps, subject to the restrictions as to tilted beams and auxiliary driving lamps set forth in this section.
(d) Whenever a motor vehicle meets another vehicle on any highway it shall be permissible to tilt the beams of the headlamps downward or to substitute therefor the light from an auxiliary driving lamp or pair of such lamps subject to the requirement that the tilted headlamps or auxiliary lamp or lamps shall give sufficient illumination under normal atmospheric conditions and on a level road to render clearly discernible a person 75 feet ahead, but shall not project a glaring or dazzling light to persons in front of the vehicle: Provided, that at all times required in G.S. 20‑129 at least two lights shall be displayed on the front of and on opposite sides of every motor vehicle other than a motorcycle, road roller, road machinery, or farm tractor.

So from this I would take it to mean that if the car is normally equipped from the manufacturer with two headlamps that produce the dimmed (low) beam and high beam that there legally can not me more than two other lights that shine to the front of the vehicle, i.e. not more than two fog lights OR two driving lights but not a combination of the these that equals four (4).

Also on this point is the substitution matter where the when the lights are dimmed (low beam) there can not be an auxiliary driving light on if the substitution law applies. So I read this as you can have the fog or driving light on with the high beams but not the low beams. This is confusing as one would only be able to use the fog lights in conjunction with the high beams where the fog lights will really not help. They really only help when used alone or in conjunction with the low beams.

After reading thru this a bunch of times my conclusion on this is that the NC laws are screwed up.

Vehicles Must meet the minimum standards of the NTSB (federal government) and any state law that is more restrictive. Example - 10 years ago cars were made differently for California because of the higher emmision standards there. Also things like the number of time a signal blinker) light must blink per minute is stated in the laws. I know this as i brought a car back from England with me in the late 80's and i had to change the wiper motor and the blinker relay because the wipers did not wipe fast enough and the blinkers flashed to fast. Sounds crazy but it is the truth.

Also some of the Public Road ways are actually federal roads ways (interstate highways).

as for states setting the laws they do to some extent but they can only make it more restrictive. So if the federal law states that there must be two rear brake lights that have a single minimum of lighted area of 50 square centimeters each for a total of no less than 100 square centimeters for both. A state can not have a law allowing only 60 square centimeters total. That would be less and not allowed.

Now for the federal law. It is way to long to place here but it is FMVSS 157.108 is the statue number. Under this law there are 12 different styles of headlamps Type 1 (5-¾")," "Type 2 (5-¾")," "Type 2 (7")," "Type 1A," "Type 2A," and "Type 2B", 1C1, 2C1, 2D1, 1A1, 2A1, and 2B1. and each one has its own section of the law pertaining to it and what the requirements are. each section is about one page long. Let me say this as well. each section then refers to SAE standards such as, J564a, J575, J1383, and others. The federa law also goes into great detail about the corrosion resistance of the lens and reflectors and many other details of the headlamps system. As well as the above it also states the size and location of the aiming pads and the force (foot pounds for torque) to adjust the headlamps. there are size specifications for the size of each type of headlamp as well.

If you would like to read thru it here is a link. http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...sr/571.108.htm

It make for great reading if you have 80+ hours of time to waste.Learning is a great thing. Trying to actually understand federal laws is very difficult. There are many instances where a law references another law that contradicts the law that references it or may be even has been recinded.

 

Yep.... but again, no reference to "fog" in the whole law... and it says "at least two headlights".... and doesn't specify a maximum number... could easily be argued that the MINI OEM driving lights are just additional headlights under this provision (because they indeed function as high beam #3 and #4) and that the fogs are "auxiliary" lights.

And, while it says that the auxiliary lights MAY be used as your "low beams", and it says that it's permissible to use your low beams when you meet oncoming traffic (gee, thanks for your permission to turn off my high beams ) I don't see where it explicitly states that auxiliary light may instead supplement high beams, nor where it explicitly states a maximum number of lights.

So, yes, I agree 100% - NC laws are screwed up.

Again, fully an academic exercise... MINI sells cars with both fogs and driving lights, and, as far as I know, no MINI owner has ever been ticketed for using these as the come from the dealer... which allows the following configurations:
* fogs plus low beams
* low beams only
* low beams plus high beams
* low beams plus high beams plus driving lights

 

but those would be considered auxiliary under the definition of the the word auxliliary.

but that would only be the case if EVERY MINI had the OEM Driving lights for one and for two they would have to always come on with the regular headlamp switch and not be able to be turned off separately thru another switch which is actually the case in the Mini. And BTW the Mini OEM driving lights to not meet the requirements to be a Headlamp under the federal law. They do though meet the requirements of being an auxiliary lamp under federal law.

true.

If the law does not limit something then as far as i am concerned there is nothing the government can do about it if i wanted to run 20 lights on the front of a vehicle. But unfortunately NC law does state that there is a limit of two auxiliary light allowed.

So this in conjunction with the fact that the headlamps are really only two (other lights don't count unless they are installed as the main headlamps and this is actually regulated by the federal government as to what a headlamp can be) This then limits NC vehicles to a maximum of 4 (or 6 lamps in the case where high and low beams are permitted as separate lamps by the federal government) because the auxiliary lamps are a maximum of two.

Very true but i would be willing to bet other states are just as screwed up.

Very true and i doubt that anyone would be stopped for having headlamps, driving lights (even the four mini will supply), and fog lights on the car. And i would be willing to bet that if they were stopped and given a ticket for such a thing that it would be thrown out in court.

So is the law wrong or right? Either way it does not really matter, because i doubt anyone will be stopped for it. It's just stupid, and should be recinded.

And BTW the states Attorney General could turn this around to mean anything that want it to.

 

Just like in the speaker threads, you guys have once again made my head hurt!

I'm going to learn that there are some VERY thorough people on this board.

And thanks for all of the info. I'll let you know how it goes once I get them installed.

 

Don't Do It!!! You'll go to prison!

just kidding.

 

Back to Scott's suggestion... Greg (the OP) said he only got the rear fog option to fill out the toggle. If really concerned about the rear fog turning on with the driving lights, then take out the rear fog bulb or disconnect it (I don't know if an R56 would signal a bulb out warning).

However, under conditions where you can drive with both high beams and driving lights turned on, I just can't imagine getting hassled about your rear fog also being on.

 

I was doing some searchjing under "Driving Lights" and just saw this one. FMVSS 108 is a "Safety Standard" that all "car makers" must certify they are in compliannce with or be fined by the government. Once the car is in your hands this "standard" can not be enforced by the "government", because the FBI does not have a "Traffic Section" and State/Local Police can not enforce Federal Law.

Once the car is on the road, only "State" law applies.

Jim

 

There are so many ridiculous posts where people, who are not attorneys are quoting federal law, by something that is clearly a state issue. There is no federal statute regarding USE driving with highs and fog lights, period. As I quoted in a similar thread:

"Again, I really do not want to argue the point, as I think we all agree, it is best to drive safely and not blind oncoming traffic, or detract from your front blinker.

You can choose to disagree, but there is no section of federal law on any book restricting total amount of light emitted from driving lights. Russell V. California is a perfect example. It ultimately went to the USDOT which stated:

"We have no authority to approve or disapprove lighting equipment. Under our statute, a lighting (or vehicle) manufacturer is required to certify that its equipment (or vehicle) meets the Standard No. 108 (if it is replacement equipment included in the standard), and the use of the DOT symbol on the item is the most frequently used method of certification...You ask whether there is any limitation to bulb wattage for auxiliary lamps used to supplement the headlamps when used on the upper beam. There is no wattage limitation."

Shortly there after, CA changed it's laws limiting the total number of auxiliary lights to four. The US government does not care about how many lights Joe-Bob has on his truck, they are not going to police, fine etc. As such, the code leaves it up to states to regulate the matter. The same argument can be had for tinted glass, radio noise, etc. The federal government has no jurisdiction over the use of any of these. Manufacturing? Yes. Use? No. They are all decided on state and local levels. That is why some cities can have under-carriage lights and some do not. Please let no one add those to their Mini's."