I did four flash upgrades on four Cooper Ss with pulleys and cold air intakes today. All were impressive, but the local chassis dyno (we only have an engine dyno at Perfect Power) was down, so I calibrated the old seat of the pants dyno and came up with these observations. The mid-range power is not really noticeably better, but the top end power, with the extended redline, gives the highest peak boost readings yet; nearly sixteen psi on a low pressure and density day. Aside from the the extension in rpm, the whole 5500 to redline pull is more frantic. Weather conditions today, indicate that more power will be available on a cold, dry, high pressure day. Even low and mid range power could feel better on a cool, dry, high pressure day.
This is not the software that Randy is using, although peak power ratings on both are the same. This is the same software Schmidt uses. Schmidt does not write the software, they purchase it too, as I understand it. Sorry no dyno numbers.

PerfPow

_________________
SPUD

 

Should I assume the pulley gave more midrange,but the ECU only added to the top.

 

How much horsepower did it make?
Dyno charts?

 

Hi M,
Pretty accurately stated. The pulley gives increased boost everywhere. This makes torque and horsepower climb. It's more obvious where the torque was weakest, at lower rpm. The ECU upgrade improves mixture and timing parameters across the board, but with no dyno numbers I hate to guess anything. The high rpm increase is noticeable because the last, additional couple hundred rpm yield the highest boost peak yet. The owners of the cars noticed the ECU gains and are happy with the improvement. Despite the $$.

PerfPow

 

Does ECU stand for Excessive Cost Upgrade?

Cost?

When do you anticipate being able to generate and post some data?...ie dyno numbers.


His, Chile REd all over / Hers, EB UJ on top

 

$750. I think it stands for Excellent Computer Upgrade. I don't plan to dyno the mods until I have before and after numbers the same day. That was supposed to be yesterday, but the chassis dyno was down. No point in doing 'after' dyno runs. Next batch of mods with ECU upgrades will be in a few weeks. We'll try to get before and after results then. On more than one car, for comparison purposes. For those who think this is excessively expensive, invest in a $1300 header for 4 horsepower.

PerfPow

 

>>$750. For those who think this is excessively expensive, invest in a $1300 header for 4 horsepower.

Oh come on, that's not a justification for $750 is it now.

How about "Spend $4000 for a paint job and get 0 HP?"

If the dealer reflashes my ECU, can I reflash it with equipment
that I own, or do I need to see you again? Do you charge for a re-flash?

 

'Reflashes' will be no charge. If the dealer 'upgrades you' you will know, immediately, by running to the extended redline. You will have to bring the car back unless you've bought the hardware, software and paid the monthly fees to do this.
I'll admit I'm starting to get a little tired of all the sarcastic, 'rip-off' comments. If you don't think this is worth it, don't get it. We don't set the price. We are trying to offer everything that makes the Cooper S run better. Some of the things make tiny improvements for a large sum of money. As you get near the limit in horsepower gains, the law of diminishing returns comes into play.
It would be nice if we could keep adding 20hp for $200. I'd spend a nice even $3000. That would give an extra 300hp, for a total of 463hp right around the practical limit for the Mini front wheel drive system.

PerfPow

 

>>I'll admit I'm starting to get a little tired of all the sarcastic, 'rip-off' comments.

I didn't mean to be sarcastic. I meant YOU were basically saying that
a $1300 header was a ripoff since it added only 4 HP and I pointed that
out to you. Sorry if you thought it was sarcastic.

>>It would be nice if we could keep adding 20hp for $200. I'd spend a nice even $3000.
>>That would give an extra 300hp, for a total of 463hp right around the practical limit for the
>>Mini front wheel drive system.

I can't see what this has to do with the discussion.

 

The expression I've heard before is cubic dollars or $^3

In otherwords, there are some easy gains to be had for a low price, but as you keep going, things start to cost more. I don't really want to debate the ECU cost very much, except to say this isn't a 1.8T and MINI isn't producing cars at 1.8T quantities so there are fewer cars to spread costs over. Randy @ MINI Motorsport, George @ MINI Madness, and (I'm sorry perfpow, I don' know your name) @ Perfect Power aren't doing the programming. They are reselling. That means they are held hostage to the cost like the rest of us.

So as much as we may not like the $720-$750 ECU pricing that's the way the market is. It's time to suck it up and either purchase the ECU upgrade, or accept that it's too rich for your blood. I seriously don't see the marketplace for the ECU changing anytime soon.

 

That's right Dave,
It seems that some people think that we're setting the prices. We're reselling the software like we resell a pulley. Randy and I have our own developement costs too.

Trippy,
I don't consider the header a rip-off, as they make an increase in power. I have paid too much for horsepower in my business many times, as it is part of the process in searching for power. Sometime, at the highest levels in motorsport, teams will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for engine improvements that are shockingly small. It's worth it if it wins a race. On the street it's about fun. If you want power you have to pay, but you don't need it. The ECU upgrade is just a better hp/$ deal. I'm sure as more competition hits the market our suppliers will lower their prices to be competetive. This season's horsepower upgrades are always cheaper next season.

Sol Snyderman
(PerfPow)
Perfect Power
http://www.perfectpowerinc.com

 

>> I seriously don't see the marketplace for the ECU changing anytime soon.

Whoops, there's a $490 upgrade available from PowerChips

Things change FAST here in the internet-world don't they? :smile:

 

>>Things change FAST here in the internet-world don't they? :smile:

How do you know that the Powerchips ECU would perform as well or better than the solutions from Randy or Perfpow?

Mena

 

>>How do you know that the Powerchips ECU would perform as well or better
>>than the solutions from Randy or Perfpow?

We have no idea yet.

 

Who wants to be the guinea pig? Randy and I are happy with our software. If that one makes 18 hp you can sell it to us for $800, or, risk wasting $495. Now you're in business too!

PerfPow

 

>>Whoops, there's a $490 upgrade available from PowerChips
>>
>>Things change FAST here in the internet-world don't they? :smile:

By way of information for those interested, the $490.00 from PowerChips is for their 'Gold' Upgrade. It's not compatible with the 15% pulley. They did tweak software to accomodate the Pulley mod, but it falls under their 'Platinum' upgrade plan - can be yours for $990.00. No charge for reflashing except shipping both ways.

Raven

 

You think you or randy could order this stuff and find out how good or bad it is?? You have the tools. That would certainly shut up a lot of people about it. I absolutely agree with both of you by the way. This ECU upgrade is not a necessity, nor is it commonplace, so don't think that it should be cheap. If you don't like the price, DON'T BUY IT!!! and in 6 months when the cheaper version comes out you can get it then, but in the meantime all these guys have been enjoying the higher performance for 6 months!! I'm one of those people who can't ( or don't want to) afford it, but I'm not going to sit around a ***** about it. Sorry, stepping down off the soapbox now. But really, you think one of y'all that tests all this stuff could test this new chip?? That would be great!

Chris

 

given a typical profit margin, retailers are at the mercy of the wholesalers who have seen the mini-market as a goldmine with part prices typcially double that for other performance cars. It isn't entirely about volume, although that is a factor. For example, if my pulley production increases form say 100 per year to 100 per month, I can tool up accordingly and maybe get the OEM price down 10% for bulk buying, but that is about it. If the software were to have a 12x increase in sales volume, what would that do?

Using header for example, $300 buys a very nice 4 cyl all ss mandrel bent product for most cars, yet for the mini, expect to pay more than double that. these things are hand made; once you have the jig and bends figured out, they still need hand assembly, one at a time, no matter how many you might make. Does this mean the more than double cost has to cover the tooling and setup? at say $100 per header going back into R&D cost coverage, that would take 20 headers to generate 2,000 which would cover about 20-30 hours of R&D time, plenty to tool up for just about any header and the mini header is one of the simpler.

 

Aye I know all about what you're saying, I manage "hardware" projects like that all the time but software is called software for a reason.... no jigs / tooling / maintenance / consumables required! :smile:

In my opinion, all this software stuff is way beyond my scope of knowledge so you have me where you want me, charge what you think I'll pay. Thats how business works. God Bless America.

 

>>You think you or randy could order this stuff and find out how good or bad it is?? You have the tools. <<

Chris,
You need to remember that these two are running a business. I don't think it is too fair to ask them to buy and test sombody elses product when some people are already complaining about the cost of the products they have already tested. How are they going to recouperate the time and money spent? They have given this group more then a few freebies with all the R&D they have done.

James

 

Thanks James,

PerfPow

 

I must say I agree with James also.