Greetings All
I am adding H-sport springs to my MCS for 1" lowering front and rears. I have a madness rear swaybar already, I'm also changing the stock S-lites to Team Dynamics 17x7 Pro Race 1 wheels with Yokohama AVS ES 100 215/45-17 tires. Finally I will add H-sport adjustable lower rear pair control arms.

After doing all this do I need to do an alignment? I have 2600 miles on the car. 4 wheel or 2 wheel alignment? No alignment- just adjust the negative camber/toe in for the rear suspension? Any suggestions.
Thanks.

 

Only the rear control arms will necessitate an alignment. So technically only the rear needs it. Although you *could* get away with just counting the turns on the ends of the control arms prior to installation. Maybe.

With the addition of springs alone you do not need an alignment.

R

 

>>With the addition of springs alone you do not need an alignment.
>>
>>R


I thought that was the case, but this post sure did make me nervous. My H-Sports will be here early next week, and I sure didn't want to get an alighment too! Whew! *wipes brow*

Craig

 

With all those changes made to the suspension- would it hurt to get a 4 wheel thrust alignment done at 2600 miles?
I'd like to start off in good shape with my new set of wheels- not wear them out too soon due to an alignment problem- more like a preventive step- On the other hand- do I need to do this at all? I can use the rear contol arms to adjust some in the rear-is that all I need to consider or do? Thanks

Any comments from RandyBMC?

 

Yup, only need worry about the rear.

R

 

I think you should at least check the toe on both front and back. I've done the same upgrades (H-sport springs/Madness bar/H-sport lower arms) and did do the alignment mostly to balance the two sides of the car since they were different from the factory. We ended changing the toe front and rear and adjusting the rear camber back to -.75deg. The rear camber was approx -1.5deg with just the springs. According to Hotchkis 1 full turn of the adjuster on the arms equals 1 deg of adjustment and I ran out of time at the alignment shop to check that.

 

rrmixn-
Thanks- will keep in mind to check- who knows if the factory did a good job unless there is excessive wear on a tire.

Davbret-
Thanks for the comments-
I did find at helix13.com (they sell adjustable control arms for the rears)
"We encourage you to have your rear alignment set for 1/16" toe out and 1 to 11/2 degrees negative camber if aggressive cornering performance is desired. "
I could consider this or be more like rrmixn and go for less rear camber at .75 degrees (better for tire wear, less rotating tires - not as good for track driving?)
I would be using my MCS for daily street driving and driving school on the track twice a year.
Thanks again-

 

I'm going with the same H-sport set up and I'm looking to run the team dynamics wheel & tire combo you mentioned. Please post pics once the job is complete.

Are you going with the Gunmetal or Black wheels?

 

Mini-Matt:
Neither! I be WHITE
Because I have an indy blue with white top/mirrors and white tail lights and aero grille.

Black doesn't show dirt much but too dark for me. Gunmetal might be good. Silver was OK since I have silver S-lites now but I was looking for a different look for the track- these will be driving school track wheels and I will chrome plate my S-lites and put Falken ST-115 tires on them
http://www.falkentire.com/html/produ...5tirespecs.htm
http://www.falkentire.com/flash/inferno.htm

I clean my present wheels daily or almost daily, I wax them and I will be changing the brake shoes soon. Should be good. Strong and light compared to the S-lites and the Yokohamas are good I got the 215/45-17 but was looking at the 215/40-17 and stock 205/45-17 too.

 

I'm also considering the H-sport springs. If you lower a MINI with these springs, toe-in does not increase? Just want to be sure I understand.. thanks :smile:

 

I vote check toe in!!!

 

The toe doesn't change perceptibly (with a Pole Position FASTRAX alignment tool) when doing the springs.

Ryan is right, you could always eyeball it with the camber arms from stock, then count the turns, but to do it right, you should really check the rear camber after doing the control arms.

To adjust toe in the rear, you really need to do all four camber arms, then you can still keep the negative camber while at the same time goin slightly toe out (an autocross setting). For most folks, the toe in the rear being neutral is fine, so just to get rid of some negative camber for tire wear, use the lower control arms and set the camber to negative .5 or so.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Randy

 

I spoke to Randy about this today-
To summarize.
With the H-sport springs you don't really have to do much. If you don't add control arms that are adjustable then you cannot adjust anything anyway. However Randy has checked the front after installing the springs and it was really close to stock so nothing need be done.

In the rear Randy feels that if you have the need to do autoX then having upper and lower control arms would give you the ability to adjust both toe in and negative camber. Otherwise if you have only the pair of lower arms then you can use a hand meter and set it for about a half degree of negative camber. This will tend to spare the tires from wearing out as easily. If using the car on the track then a little more negative camber helps cornering.

Thanks RandyBMC for your advice. I got the rear control arms today

 

I was one of the first people to have the production H-Sport springs. They are a very useful mod to the MINI's handling, reducing understeer while lowering Cg and roll-center, and improving the ride quality!
The only alignment concern (as Randy and Davbret stated) is the rear negative camber. After installing, the rear camber is (and I'm just guessing here, I haven't measured it yet) is about -1.5 degrees. This setting is perfect for very aggressive street and some track use. After my weekend at Deal's Gap, all four tires showed excellent wear characteristcs, very even on all four corners. If this isn't a testament to not worrying about your alignment, nothing is!

 

Thanks for your feedback-
Will try to check and see how it works in the rear. Options are leave the camber at -1.5, -1, -0.75 or -.5
Did you also get the control arms? 2 or 4? and what about the madness rear swaybar. I'm keeping the stiffest setting on the swaybar for now and maybe I will pick -1 or -.075 to start with and check the wear on the tires. I can be changed since I have a pair of adjustable lower control arms. (they are heavy-about 6 pounds for the pair).
I like your white wheels-did you get the aero grilles and did you do anything to your tail lights? Tint?

 

The setting of the swaybar has no effect on camber, fyi

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I'm running the stock control arms, and therefore the only change to camber, toe, and caster is strictly due to the H-Sport springs (not including my H&R wheel spacers, as they only modify roll-center and scrub-radius)

If you are using your adjustable rear control arms, a baseline is to set your camber to whatever the OEM setting is (which means measure before tweaking). I have no idea what your driving style or conditions are like, so any further recommendation is pointless.

Cheers,
Ryan

 

Just an update-
Tomorrow morning I will be taking my MCS in to an alignment specialist to measure the rear camber and using the adjustable rear control arms set the negative camber to .75 degrees which is what H-sport recommends in the instruction sheet (they claim that is close to stock). Since i have only the bottom two control arms I cannot adjust for toe in but I do not race so that is OK for now. No alignment needed for the front suspension.

I also have the madness rear antiroll bar set with the firmest setting. Combined with the H-sport springs I can take turns very hard and it does quite well. Very controlled and flat corners. At regular driving speeds and turns you can't really tell anything is upgraded.

I will also had the BMP aluminum tower strut (in a few days) to stiffen the front end- this was to match the spring upgrade.

 

:smile:
And YES I really needed it and YES I would recommend a 4 wheel alignment done by a shop that knows what they are doing.
So- I added H-sport springs and the rear camber control arm- just the lower pair.
Before alignment
front toe in was in 50 on the left and out 30 on the right
rear camber was negative 2.4 degrees and the rear wheels were tilted inward at the top- quite visible.
Ride was bumpy and my dash would rattle and shake over rough roads.
The shop said they would adjust the rear camber to negative 0.75 degrees that I requested but once they did that, they said I should expect that the front and rear toe in would be off. They would check to see that it be realigned to match manufacturer's specs for toe in. They said they could adjust both the front and rears. Their speciality is brakes and alignment. I initially talked to a Midas outlet and they would not touch the car due to being lowered and them not know what to do for a car that was modified.

Here are some of the details from a spec sheet I got from the shop:
Left Front/ Right Front/ Specified Range
Camber(degrees) -0.5 / -0.2 / -0.9 to -0.1
Castor (degrees) 4.5 / 4.4 / 4.3 to 5.3
Toe (degrees) 0.13 / 0.13 / 0.13 to 0.18

Front (in degrees)
Actual / Specified Range
Cross Camber -0.3 / -0.5 to 0.5
Cross Castor 0 / -0.5 to 0.5
Total Toe 0.26 / 0.25 to 0.35

Left Rear / Right Rear / Specified Range
Camber(degrees) -0.7 / -0.7 / -2.0 to -1.0
Toe (degrees) 0.15 / 0.15 / 0.13 to 0.27

Rear (in degrees)
Actual / Specified Range
Cross Camber 0.0 / -0.5 to 0.5
Total Toe 0.3 / 0.27 to 0.53
Thrust Angle 0.00 / -0.17 to 0.17

The car ran much smoother after the alignment. Amazing. The rear wheels had a slight tilt inward but much better than before. Cost was about $82 including tax at 4% and hourly rate was $70. Took them about 100 minutes minimum. Est on time was 90 minutes. I'm planning to add a tower front strut brace- they said that it would be OK and not mess up the alignment. I also have the madness rear sway bar on stiffest setting (two holes).

So for me a four wheel thrust alignment worked wonders. Toe in was really not too good after the springs were installed and if I did the adjustments by eye on my rear camber it would have affected toe in on rear and maybe fronts even more.


_________________
03MCS-IB/W, aero grille, white tail lights, MB Quart speakers, euro parcel shelf, Madness intake/ rear swaybar- Get In.Get Out.Get Even-Motor On

 

minihune, did they give you the before alignment specs?
To my knowledge, the only thing you can change is the front toe with the factory pieces. I know you added the H-Sport rear lower control arms, so they adjusted the rear camber. Your "after" specs look dead-on perfect, though I don't know why H-Sport recommends -0.75 degrees of rear camber versus the -2.0 to -1.0 of oem spec. Perhaps they feel that since the car is lowered there is less body roll via lowered roll-center and Cg, and therefore less camber is required. There, I answered my own question

Cheers,
Ryan

 

I did not get before alignment complete specs but the front toe in was off, left front was in 50 and the right front was out 30 and in the back the pre alignment camber was negative 2.4 degrees which is too much. It looked off too. The car drives much better now.
The shop told me that they can adjust front and rear toe in no problem and my adjustable rear camber arms can change the rear camber easy enough. The H-sport camber arms install booklet says to set negative rear camber to -0.75 degrees. That is there recommendation. The shop says that factory specs will allow up to about -1.5 degrees. Given that the springs are lowered I think -0.75 to -0.5 degrees is about right. Depends how you drive. Randy BMC recommended -0.5 degrees. I also have the rear anti roll bar set to firmest so that is a consideration.

Most important is that there is no way you can know how off your alignment is without checking. It gets more complicated with changing springs and anti roll bar or rear camber arms and so forth. Don't trust that it is correct. The handling is much much better and smoother with everything aligned. It was noticable.

I highly recommend a 4 wheel thrust alignment done by a specialty shop after adding springs/ anti roll bar or rear camber arms.

_________________
03MCS-IB/W, aero grille, white tail lights, MB Quart speakers, euro parcel shelf, Madness intake/ rear swaybar- Get In.Get Out.Get Even-Motor On

 

I would like to clarify the numbers below with regards to the alignment settings.

Could someone explain what "actual" means and what "specified range" means with regards to these numbers

Would these settings be appropriate for H & R Springs? Mostly street driving, sometimes aggressive in turns, sometimes not. Driver's ed/tracktime 3-4 times a year. Will eventually do some autocross as a novice. Don't know how often.

No other suspension mods, 17" S-Lites, with the Pirelli run-flats (which I will replace probably with an all-season performance type tire when the run-flats are through).

The H & R springs are already on the car, I know, I've read that the H-sports are better.

There was apparently a 2 wheel alignment done when the springs were installed at 3700 miles. Don't know the settings, am trying to find out. Also which wheels were aligned. Car now has 9800+ miles with what seems to be excessive wear on the inside of the rear tires. Handles very nicely, though. The car has already seen some track time.

Thank you so much in advance for your response(s).




>> :smile:
>>And YES I really needed it and YES I would recommend a 4 wheel alignment done by a shop that knows what they are doing.
>>So- I added H-sport springs and the rear camber control arm- just the lower pair.
>>Before alignment
>>front toe in was in 50 on the left and out 30 on the right
>>rear camber was negative 2.4 degrees and the rear wheels were tilted inward at the top- quite visible.
>>Ride was bumpy and my dash would rattle and shake over rough roads.
>>The shop said they would adjust the rear camber to negative 0.75 degrees that I requested but once they did that, they said I should expect that the front and rear toe in would be off. They would check to see that it be realigned to match manufacturer's specs for toe in. They said they could adjust both the front and rears. Their speciality is brakes and alignment. I initially talked to a Midas outlet and they would not touch the car due to being lowered and them not know what to do for a car that was modified.
>>
>>Here are some of the details from a spec sheet I got from the shop:
>> Left Front/ Right Front/ Specified Range
>>Camber(degrees) -0.5 / -0.2 / -0.9 to -0.1
>>Castor (degrees) 4.5 / 4.4 / 4.3 to 5.3
>>Toe (degrees) 0.13 / 0.13 / 0.13 to 0.18
>>
>>Front (in degrees)
>> Actual / Specified Range
>>Cross Camber -0.3 / -0.5 to 0.5
>>Cross Castor 0 / -0.5 to 0.5
>>Total Toe 0.26 / 0.25 to 0.35
>>
>> Left Rear / Right Rear / Specified Range
>>Camber(degrees) -0.7 / -0.7 / -2.0 to -1.0
>>Toe (degrees) 0.15 / 0.15 / 0.13 to 0.27
>>
>>Rear (in degrees)
>> Actual / Specified Range
>>Cross Camber 0.0 / -0.5 to 0.5
>>Total Toe 0.3 / 0.27 to 0.53
>>Thrust Angle 0.00 / -0.17 to 0.17
>>
>>The car ran much smoother after the alignment. Amazing. The rear wheels had a slight tilt inward but much better than before. Cost was about $82 including tax at 4% and hourly rate was $70. Took them about 100 minutes minimum. Est on time was 90 minutes. I'm planning to add a tower front strut brace- they said that it would be OK and not mess up the alignment. I also have the madness rear sway bar on stiffest setting (two holes).
>>
>>So for me a four wheel thrust alignment worked wonders. Toe in was really not too good after the springs were installed and if I did the adjustments by eye on my rear camber it would have affected toe in on rear and maybe fronts even more.
>>
>>
>>_________________
>>03MCS-IB/W, aero grille, white tail lights, MB Quart speakers, euro parcel shelf, Madness intake/ rear swaybar- Get In.Get Out.Get Even-Motor On

_________________
I'm the boss, not you!
Get over here!
Gimme a kiss!

 

>>The H & R springs are already on the car, I know, I've read that the H-sports are better.

I read that as well, and switched to H-sports. After several autocrosses on each, my feeling is that there is no difference between the two. There is not a sigificant handling difference at the limit or on the highway. I should have saved my money for better tires for STX.

 

>> I would like to clarify the numbers below with regards to the alignment settings.
>>
>>Could someone explain what "actual" means and what "specified range" means with regards to these numbers

Actual means what my settings were after the alignment was done for each wheel.
Specified range is the range that is allowed within factory settings for an MCS with 17" wheels.



>>Would these settings be appropriate for H & R Springs? Mostly street driving, sometimes aggressive in turns, sometimes not. Driver's ed/tracktime 3-4 times a year. Will eventually do some autocross as a novice. Don't know how often.

yes these setttings are fine for H&R springs.

>>No other suspension mods, 17" S-Lites, with the Pirelli run-flats (which I will replace probably with an all-season performance type tire when the run-flats are through).
>>
>>The H & R springs are already on the car, I know, I've read that the H-sports are better.
>>
>>There was apparently a 2 wheel alignment done when the springs were installed at 3700 miles. Don't know the settings, am trying to find out. Also which wheels were aligned. Car now has 9800+ miles with what seems to be excessive wear on the inside of the rear tires. Handles very nicely, though. The car has already seen some track time.
>>
>>Thank you so much in advance for your response(s).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> :smile:
>>>>And YES I really needed it and YES I would recommend a 4 wheel alignment done by a shop that knows what they are doing.
>>>>So- I added H-sport springs and the rear camber control arm- just the lower pair.
>>>>Before alignment
>>>>front toe in was in 50 on the left and out 30 on the right
>>>>rear camber was negative 2.4 degrees and the rear wheels were tilted inward at the top- quite visible.
>>>>Ride was bumpy and my dash would rattle and shake over rough roads.
>>>>The shop said they would adjust the rear camber to negative 0.75 degrees that I requested but once they did that, they said I should expect that the front and rear toe in would be off. They would check to see that it be realigned to match manufacturer's specs for toe in. They said they could adjust both the front and rears. Their speciality is brakes and alignment. I initially talked to a Midas outlet and they would not touch the car due to being lowered and them not know what to do for a car that was modified.
>>>>
>>>>Here are some of the details from a spec sheet I got from the shop:
>>>> Left Front/ Right Front/ Specified Range
>>>>Camber(degrees) -0.5 / -0.2 / -0.9 to -0.1
>>>>Castor (degrees) 4.5 / 4.4 / 4.3 to 5.3
>>>>Toe (degrees) 0.13 / 0.13 / 0.13 to 0.18
>>>>
>>>>Front (in degrees)
>>>> Actual / Specified Range
>>>>Cross Camber -0.3 / -0.5 to 0.5
>>>>Cross Castor 0 / -0.5 to 0.5
>>>>Total Toe 0.26 / 0.25 to 0.35
>>>>
>>>> Left Rear / Right Rear / Specified Range
>>>>Camber(degrees) -0.7 / -0.7 / -2.0 to -1.0
>>>>Toe (degrees) 0.15 / 0.15 / 0.13 to 0.27
>>>>
>>>>Rear (in degrees)
>>>> Actual / Specified Range
>>>>Cross Camber 0.0 / -0.5 to 0.5
>>>>Total Toe 0.3 / 0.27 to 0.53
>>>>Thrust Angle 0.00 / -0.17 to 0.17
>>>>
>>>>The car ran much smoother after the alignment. Amazing. The rear wheels had a slight tilt inward but much better than before. Cost was about $82 including tax at 4% and hourly rate was $70. Took them about 100 minutes minimum. Est on time was 90 minutes. I'm planning to add a tower front strut brace- they said that it would be OK and not mess up the alignment. I also have the madness rear sway bar on stiffest setting (two holes).
>>>>
>>>>So for me a four wheel thrust alignment worked wonders. Toe in was really not too good after the springs were installed and if I did the adjustments by eye on my rear camber it would have affected toe in on rear and maybe fronts even more.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_________________
>>>>03MCS-IB/W, aero grille, white tail lights, MB Quart speakers, euro parcel shelf, Madness intake/ rear swaybar- Get In.Get Out.Get Even-Motor On
>>
>>_________________
>>I'm the boss, not you!
>>Get over here!
>>Gimme a kiss!

 

Previous questions:

Would these settings (factory with the exception of -.75' camber in rear) be appropriate for H & R Springs? Mostly street driving, sometimes aggressive in turns, sometimes not. Driver's ed/tracktime 3-4 times a year. Will eventually do some autocross as a novice. Don't know how often.

No other suspension mods, 17" S-Lites, with the Pirelli run-flats (which I will replace probably with an all-season performance type tire when the run-flats are through).

The H & R springs are already on the car, I know, I've read that the H-sports are better.

There was apparently a 2 wheel alignment done when the springs were installed at 3700 miles. Don't know the settings, am trying to find out. Also which wheels were aligned. Car now has 9800+ miles with what seems to be excessive wear on the inside of the rear tires. Handles very nicely, though.

I had read all the posts and threads regarding alignment prior to my previous questions.

Found out that the front wheels were aligned.

Have car at dealership for service, oil change and misc. warranty issues, just keeping up with things.

Was told, as has been mentioned on other threads, that BMW doesn't recommend tire rotation because of the performance orientation of their vehicles. The tires wear a certain way on each individual wheel, and rotating them would interfere with the handling characteristics. This, according to the service advisor, is BMW's philosophy. That said, he would personally rotate his tires.

O.K., so, why is their alignment so expensive? $189 for 4 wheels. Yeah, they do the special weights and all that, but why? Is it worth it? I asked for factory settings, except for the rear, where I wanted -.75' of camber. With the H&R Springs, he couldn't get close to that, still about -1.0' away. Don't have all the details, only spoke on the phone, haven't seen the specs yet. Recommended that I get rear lower adjustable control arms, which I also read on some threads.

Will I need another alignment when I install these? When I complained about the price and doing another alignment, he said he'd "work with me on that". Again, no specifics yet.....

Thoughts? Recommendations? THANK YOU!

_________________
I'm the boss, not you!
Get over here!
Gimme a kiss!

 

Just want to make sure - the $189 price was what the dealer is charging for alignment?