Drivetrain Cosworth Head & Cam replacement
HH -- I do not expect you to be a customer but what I am doing is trying to educate those who read this but do not post.
R&D is costly; more costly then you want to know about. And that cost gets added to the job. The reason CNCed heads are desirable is precisely because of repeatability.
Price -- The most expensive head I advertise for the Mini is $2325. That is (very) cheap compared to what we put on our road race cars!
R&D is costly; more costly then you want to know about. And that cost gets added to the job. The reason CNCed heads are desirable is precisely because of repeatability.
Price -- The most expensive head I advertise for the Mini is $2325. That is (very) cheap compared to what we put on our road race cars!
Don, I understand what you're saying, and I also hear where herbie is coming from.
Is it not possible for you(or any vendor that does heads) to offer a decent one for $600-$800?
That would be your Stage 1, Stage 2=$1250, Stage 3=$2325, etc
I bet you wouldn't be able to fill the orders fast enough.
Is it not possible for you(or any vendor that does heads) to offer a decent one for $600-$800?
That would be your Stage 1, Stage 2=$1250, Stage 3=$2325, etc
I bet you wouldn't be able to fill the orders fast enough.
but remember, this ISN"T a 350 Cheby! If you really want a cheap car to mod, get yourself a Mustang or something like that.
But you'll blow all your savings trying to get it to handle well!
Low volume = high costs!
And for all you who think there's tons of gold in heads... What percentage of Mini buyers will every buy a head? 1%? No way.... 0.1% Probably still high...
with 200k Minis in the US, each thenth of one percent is 200 cars.
Now, how many shops are doing heads. Let's make the math easy and say 10. So if each one of them were to sell 25 heads, you'd be over 0.1% of all the Minis in the country! So, if you're going into this business, you have to add quite a premium per head to recoup start up costs (and if you think a CNC machine makes the labor go away, ever priced one of them?)
So, while I agree a lot of parts are overpiced, if you take a market view and work the numbers it is a miracle any of us can get a head at all!
On another point. If you don't have Champagne tastes, why worry about what Champagne costs? Go buy your beverage of choise, and be happy.
Another point. All this "stage X" crap is crap. There is no standard across the industry as to what a stage is, so it's just a marketing destinction to get one to appreciate the degree of seriousness (?) in the mod. One vendors stage 3 is going to be more nasty than their stage 1, but you'll never compare one vendors Stages to another.....
Matt
But you'll blow all your savings trying to get it to handle well!
Low volume = high costs!
And for all you who think there's tons of gold in heads... What percentage of Mini buyers will every buy a head? 1%? No way.... 0.1% Probably still high...
with 200k Minis in the US, each thenth of one percent is 200 cars.
Now, how many shops are doing heads. Let's make the math easy and say 10. So if each one of them were to sell 25 heads, you'd be over 0.1% of all the Minis in the country! So, if you're going into this business, you have to add quite a premium per head to recoup start up costs (and if you think a CNC machine makes the labor go away, ever priced one of them?)
So, while I agree a lot of parts are overpiced, if you take a market view and work the numbers it is a miracle any of us can get a head at all!
On another point. If you don't have Champagne tastes, why worry about what Champagne costs? Go buy your beverage of choise, and be happy.
Another point. All this "stage X" crap is crap. There is no standard across the industry as to what a stage is, so it's just a marketing destinction to get one to appreciate the degree of seriousness (?) in the mod. One vendors stage 3 is going to be more nasty than their stage 1, but you'll never compare one vendors Stages to another.....
Matt
Thread Starter
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3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
From: OBX, NC
The focus was Cosworth Heads….
[quote=dmh;
Price -- The most expensive head I advertise for the Mini is $2325. That is (very) cheap compared to what we put on our road race cars![/quote]
As with many of the NAM post, we've moved too far from the original intent of the post. This is not a discussion of cost per say. It was intended to be a discussion of benefit for the effort of installing Cosworth heads. If I spend $1200 dollars for 8 hp or $2400 dollars for 10 hp. It really is a waste of money and time. The difference could be made up in better driving and a fresh set of tires. Don, thanks for educating me! You have opened my eyes to alternate solutions. That's why I am here. I am not sure why people are compelled to post when they don't have anything substantial to contribute to the conversation. This is not a flame so much as a statement of fact. Something NAM is sorely missing.
Price -- The most expensive head I advertise for the Mini is $2325. That is (very) cheap compared to what we put on our road race cars![/quote]
As with many of the NAM post, we've moved too far from the original intent of the post. This is not a discussion of cost per say. It was intended to be a discussion of benefit for the effort of installing Cosworth heads. If I spend $1200 dollars for 8 hp or $2400 dollars for 10 hp. It really is a waste of money and time. The difference could be made up in better driving and a fresh set of tires. Don, thanks for educating me! You have opened my eyes to alternate solutions. That's why I am here. I am not sure why people are compelled to post when they don't have anything substantial to contribute to the conversation. This is not a flame so much as a statement of fact. Something NAM is sorely missing.
Sorry, but this is off topic too!
Matt
ps, I haven't talked to any unhappy Cosworth head owners. I hear a range of opinions from other tuners, owners and head people on the product. I haven't seen any objective comparitive data either. I guess that's why head conversations go off topic.
I like mine.
Why?
Cause it's the really good.
How do you know?
Because I like mine.
But that doesn't mean it's a good value.
And you're off to the races!
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 0
From: Metro NY
I've worked on a few cars with them installed. And I have tried to tune quite a few of them. They are similar to the JCW head but with more compression. If you want to know about them call M7 or pm me (the more appropriate route as a tuner for me to discuss them).
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
As with many of the NAM post, we've moved too far from the original intent of the post. This is not a discussion of cost per say. It was intended to be a discussion of benefit for the effort of installing Cosworth heads. If I spend $1200 dollars for 8 hp or $2400 dollars for 10 hp. It really is a waste of money and time. The difference could be made up in better driving and a fresh set of tires. Don, thanks for educating me! You have opened my eyes to alternate solutions. That's why I am here. I am not sure why people are compelled to post when they don't have anything substantial to contribute to the conversation. This is not a flame so much as a statement of fact. Something NAM is sorely missing.
Thread Starter
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3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 197
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From: OBX, NC
Ahh..there it is!
Correct me if I am wrong but added compression on this specific motor is undesirable due to additional head generated? (Like many of the post, my experience with heads is related to hot-rodding bowtie 350's,
.)Is cutting the combustion chamber a part of your "stage 1" heads? As a tuner do you try to maintain stock cylinder compression? (Again this is for a road racing application.) What is the dyno data on the various heads you offer using the stock cam? (you can PM this).
(last question) Is modifying the head a performance “red herring”? Should I look at the Stahl header instead as a means to obtain hp? This is the “meat”, if you will, of what I am trying to understand.
Thanks again,
DJD
Stuck in Reverse
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,812
Likes: 0
From: 127.0.0.1
I'm not Don, nor do I really have an un-biased opinion as I have a CNC cylinder head on my car.
However, I do believe that by adding a higher-flow head you can definitely see a performance gain but you would probably need a tune of some sort to be able to realize the true potential of a head job. I'm not saying simply slapping one on isn't going to do anything, you'll just get better results if you also let the computer know about the change.
However, I do believe that by adding a higher-flow head you can definitely see a performance gain but you would probably need a tune of some sort to be able to realize the true potential of a head job. I'm not saying simply slapping one on isn't going to do anything, you'll just get better results if you also let the computer know about the change.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
Don, I understand what you're saying, and I also hear where herbie is coming from.
Is it not possible for you(or any vendor that does heads) to offer a decent one for $600-$800?
That would be your Stage 1, Stage 2=$1250, Stage 3=$2325, etc
I bet you wouldn't be able to fill the orders fast enough.
Is it not possible for you(or any vendor that does heads) to offer a decent one for $600-$800?
That would be your Stage 1, Stage 2=$1250, Stage 3=$2325, etc
I bet you wouldn't be able to fill the orders fast enough.
I build and sell port and polished cylinder heads... that is actually the key to my 13.2 quarter mile time record. Let me just say... you DO NOT want a 600-800 dollar cylinder head... its not worth it. You don't want to do all of that labor to put something inferior on your car. Save a little longer and get GREAT results. DOn't cheap out on it. its worth it... now i don't agree with most of these guys pricing... i sell mine with the schrick cam AND a port matched intake manifold for 2200 bucks...
if you want a 600-800 dollar cylinder head.. check the for sale forums to find a used john cooperworks head...
I build and sell port and polished cylinder heads... that is actually the key to my 13.2 quarter mile time record. Let me just say... you DO NOT want a 600-800 dollar cylinder head... its not worth it. You don't want to do all of that labor to put something inferior on your car. Save a little longer and get GREAT results. DOn't cheap out on it. its worth it... now i don't agree with most of these guys pricing... i sell mine with the schrick cam AND a port matched intake manifold for 2200 bucks...
if you want a 600-800 dollar cylinder head.. check the for sale forums to find a used john cooperworks head...
if you want a 600-800 dollar cylinder head.. check the for sale forums to find a used john cooperworks head...
Can you tell me what would go into a $600-$800 head?
Say for example, I sent you a MINI head, and told you I could only afford $750 by the time it's ready to leave your shop, aside from pressure testing and cleaning, what would you be able to do to it for that amount?
I'm just trying to understand what it is we are actually paying for. How much more is done to it to get the bill up to $1200-$1500? Your shop excluded, as you include an intake manifold.
It doesn't work like that....
you're not going to be able to buy $750 worth of a $2200 head.
For low prices you tend to get sloppier, less repeatable work. I'd worry about port size variations, differences in combustion chamber size, shape and surface finish.
Think of it like this. A Rembrandt type painter may charge $2000 for an oil painting. For $750 you get a sketch..... OR a corner of a canvas that looks real good, and a bunch of blank stuff....
Matt
For low prices you tend to get sloppier, less repeatable work. I'd worry about port size variations, differences in combustion chamber size, shape and surface finish.
Think of it like this. A Rembrandt type painter may charge $2000 for an oil painting. For $750 you get a sketch..... OR a corner of a canvas that looks real good, and a bunch of blank stuff....
Matt
It doesn't work like that....
you're not going to be able to buy $750 worth of a $2200 head.
For low prices you tend to get sloppier, less repeatable work. I'd worry about port size variations, differences in combustion chamber size, shape and surface finish.
Think of it like this. A Rembrandt type painter may charge $2000 for an oil painting. For $750 you get a sketch..... OR a corner of a canvas that looks real good, and a bunch of blank stuff....
Matt
you're not going to be able to buy $750 worth of a $2200 head.
For low prices you tend to get sloppier, less repeatable work. I'd worry about port size variations, differences in combustion chamber size, shape and surface finish.
Think of it like this. A Rembrandt type painter may charge $2000 for an oil painting. For $750 you get a sketch..... OR a corner of a canvas that looks real good, and a bunch of blank stuff....
Matt
Why does it have to be a $2200 head to begin with?
Basically what you're saying is, we get all or nothing.
And I'm actaully quite amused by the whole debate. This is coming from a community that buys $250 air boxes, $1000 ICs, $700 headers and when it comes to really getting the motor to work, the $1500 to $3000 that will be spent to do a head seems way too much!
With hindsight, and knowing how far I've gone with my engine, I would have done pulley, then head, then the rest to get it really to go!
Matt
No, I'm saying don't expect Caviar if you're buying Graham crackers!
And I'm actaully quite amused by the whole debate. This is coming from a community that buys $250 air boxes, $1000 ICs, $700 headers and when it comes to really getting the motor to work, the $1500 to $3000 that will be spent to do a head seems way too much!
With hindsight, and knowing how far I've gone with my engine, I would have done pulley, then head, then the rest to get it really to go!
Matt
And I'm actaully quite amused by the whole debate. This is coming from a community that buys $250 air boxes, $1000 ICs, $700 headers and when it comes to really getting the motor to work, the $1500 to $3000 that will be spent to do a head seems way too much!
With hindsight, and knowing how far I've gone with my engine, I would have done pulley, then head, then the rest to get it really to go!
Matt
Matt, it's not the whole community, it's just me and herbie.
Anyway, If the shop has the means to do a full blown track/race head, why can't they do a decent street head, and offer it for less than a grand?
Just because the first vendor(whoever that is) sold the head for $1200-$1500, that means we just have to pay it because it's going rate?
Maybe i'm stuck "back in the day" concerning this topic. I was able to go to my machine shop, tell them what I wanted done, and just pay for that.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
Thanks for the reply. I would like to discuss this with you more, if you don't mind. Apologies to the OP.
Can you tell me what would go into a $600-$800 head?
Say for example, I sent you a MINI head, and told you I could only afford $750 by the time it's ready to leave your shop, aside from pressure testing and cleaning, what would you be able to do to it for that amount?
I'm just trying to understand what it is we are actually paying for. How much more is done to it to get the bill up to $1200-$1500? Your shop excluded, as you include an intake manifold.
Can you tell me what would go into a $600-$800 head?
Say for example, I sent you a MINI head, and told you I could only afford $750 by the time it's ready to leave your shop, aside from pressure testing and cleaning, what would you be able to do to it for that amount?
I'm just trying to understand what it is we are actually paying for. How much more is done to it to get the bill up to $1200-$1500? Your shop excluded, as you include an intake manifold.
If you were to drop off a head to my shop and say... i only have 750 dollars to spend on a head... i would have to turn them away... or put them on a payment plan... or ask them to bring back the rest of the money when they pick up there cylinder head. In other words, i wouldn't do it. One it wouldn't be worth the money you would spend to tear apart your engine, and then put this 750 dollar piece back on. Keep in mind you will probably spend that much money in labor to remove and replace the head. Also, it wouldn't be worth it to me/my business to produce inferior products. I only want to produce the best parts that people can be proud of and also provide the best results and of course, at a competitive price... because lets face it... this is a price driven performance market when compared to vipers or porsche parts/ customers.
the thing that makes up the extra 1200-1500 bucks is the time spent working the cylinder head. These things take time. And head porting is very much an art. You pay for what you get...
or maybe this helps... say you were on trial for murder... do you want the 100 dollar an hour attorney or do you want the 1000 dollar an hour attorney.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 2
From: out and aboot
Ok, back from lunch.
Matt, it's not the whole community, it's just me and herbie.
Anyway, If the shop has the means to do a full blown track/race head, why can't they do a decent street head, and offer it for less than a grand?
Just because the first vendor(whoever that is) sold the head for $1200-$1500, that means we just have to pay it because it's going rate?
Maybe i'm stuck "back in the day" concerning this topic. I was able to go to my machine shop, tell them what I wanted done, and just pay for that.
Matt, it's not the whole community, it's just me and herbie.
Anyway, If the shop has the means to do a full blown track/race head, why can't they do a decent street head, and offer it for less than a grand?
Just because the first vendor(whoever that is) sold the head for $1200-$1500, that means we just have to pay it because it's going rate?
Maybe i'm stuck "back in the day" concerning this topic. I was able to go to my machine shop, tell them what I wanted done, and just pay for that.
try going back to that machine shop and having them port the head for the same price... see what happens. if they go for it great! post your results and you your experiance.
Okay... i have read this post and it sounds very condicending... but i don't mean it to come across that way. I mean this in a very genuine and encouraging tone.
[quote=Dr Obnxs;1394802And I'm actaully quite amused by the whole debate. This is coming from a community that buys $250 air boxes, $1000 ICs, $700 headers and when it comes to really getting the motor to work, the $1500 to $3000 that will be spent to do a head seems way too much!
Matt[/quote]
Your point is kinda funny
.
I looked at heads last year and they were 1700 and up. Don is now offering a stage 1 head (assume its "the" street head) for 1250 that is CnC'ed, puddle-less, ect.... which appears to be the best value at present.
I think the head market has shifted - is there more to go? no clue.
perhaps a vendor will offer a group buy.
Matt[/quote]
Your point is kinda funny
.I looked at heads last year and they were 1700 and up. Don is now offering a stage 1 head (assume its "the" street head) for 1250 that is CnC'ed, puddle-less, ect.... which appears to be the best value at present.
I think the head market has shifted - is there more to go? no clue.
perhaps a vendor will offer a group buy.
no problems at all! More than happy to discuss this with you.
If you were to drop off a head to my shop and say... i only have 750 dollars to spend on a head... i would have to turn them away... or put them on a payment plan... or ask them to bring back the rest of the money when they pick up there cylinder head. In other words, i wouldn't do it. One it wouldn't be worth the money you would spend to tear apart your engine, and then put this 750 dollar piece back on. Keep in mind you will probably spend that much money in labor to remove and replace the head. Also, it wouldn't be worth it to me/my business to produce inferior products. I only want to produce the best parts that people can be proud of and also provide the best results and of course, at a competitive price... because lets face it... this is a price driven performance market when compared to vipers or porsche parts/ customers.
the thing that makes up the extra 1200-1500 bucks is the time spent working the cylinder head. These things take time. And head porting is very much an art. You pay for what you get...
or maybe this helps... say you were on trial for murder... do you want the 100 dollar an hour attorney or do you want the 1000 dollar an hour attorney.
If you were to drop off a head to my shop and say... i only have 750 dollars to spend on a head... i would have to turn them away... or put them on a payment plan... or ask them to bring back the rest of the money when they pick up there cylinder head. In other words, i wouldn't do it. One it wouldn't be worth the money you would spend to tear apart your engine, and then put this 750 dollar piece back on. Keep in mind you will probably spend that much money in labor to remove and replace the head. Also, it wouldn't be worth it to me/my business to produce inferior products. I only want to produce the best parts that people can be proud of and also provide the best results and of course, at a competitive price... because lets face it... this is a price driven performance market when compared to vipers or porsche parts/ customers.
the thing that makes up the extra 1200-1500 bucks is the time spent working the cylinder head. These things take time. And head porting is very much an art. You pay for what you get...
or maybe this helps... say you were on trial for murder... do you want the 100 dollar an hour attorney or do you want the 1000 dollar an hour attorney.
Very interesting that you(as well as the other vendors) will not supply a lower cost "worked" head.
As per my post above, I need to get out of the past as far as engine maching goes. Thanks again.
Originally Posted by isellem
Okay... i have read this post and it sounds very condicending... but i don't mean it to come across that way. I mean this in a very genuine and encouraging tone.
EDIT: I see where it may sound like that. That is not at all how I wanted to come across. I just want to know how all the different vendors settled on $1200-$1500 for a cylinder head. I apologize for not being more clear.
You didn't do your shopping!
When I got prices for heads they were all over the place, but I found good (maybe not the best) work available for a bit oitver a grand. FWIW, I did a head, new valves, springs and retainers, ported intake and IC horns for $1900. I also spent over an hour discusing intended use and engine plans with the head tuner. And about another two hours in e-mail communications... Remember to add in the gasket set, and the labor. It's not as hard a job as it seems going in..... But expect about $750 to a grand for a shop to do it for you. All in all I redid most of my intake system for a bit over $2k. I don't race, so the extra performance that is available (going from decent caviar to exceptional) isn't really a wise investment for me. But to be fair to some of the others that offer heads, this didn't include a cam.
And I did learn that a cam swap is EASY on our cars! So you can pretty much pop it in there anytime budget allows....
Matt
ps, I have to keep this on topic, so let's just say that the package price I found was what kept me from getting the Costworth!
No, I'm saying don't expect Caviar if you're buying Graham crackers!
And I'm actaully quite amused by the whole debate. This is coming from a community that buys $250 air boxes, $1000 ICs, $700 headers and when it comes to really getting the motor to work, the $1500 to $3000 that will be spent to do a head seems way too much!
With hindsight, and knowing how far I've gone with my engine, I would have done pulley, then head, then the rest to get it really to go!
Matt
And I'm actaully quite amused by the whole debate. This is coming from a community that buys $250 air boxes, $1000 ICs, $700 headers and when it comes to really getting the motor to work, the $1500 to $3000 that will be spent to do a head seems way too much!
With hindsight, and knowing how far I've gone with my engine, I would have done pulley, then head, then the rest to get it really to go!
Matt
Ok, back from lunch.
Matt, it's not the whole community, it's just me and herbie.
Anyway, If the shop has the means to do a full blown track/race head, why can't they do a decent street head, and offer it for less than a grand?
Just because the first vendor(whoever that is) sold the head for $1200-$1500, that means we just have to pay it because it's going rate?
Maybe i'm stuck "back in the day" concerning this topic. I was able to go to my machine shop, tell them what I wanted done, and just pay for that.
Matt, it's not the whole community, it's just me and herbie.
Anyway, If the shop has the means to do a full blown track/race head, why can't they do a decent street head, and offer it for less than a grand?
Just because the first vendor(whoever that is) sold the head for $1200-$1500, that means we just have to pay it because it's going rate?
Maybe i'm stuck "back in the day" concerning this topic. I was able to go to my machine shop, tell them what I wanted done, and just pay for that.
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
LOL i think this whole thing is funny as our heads are pretty cheap... by our I mean Minis in general... I do alot of work on cars besides MINIs... and take the EVO for instance... the head is 3500 from cosworth... sure it's twin cam... but still...
yeah sometimes I would like stuff to be cheaper too.. but at the same time I value good products and good service... sometimes that comes with a price...
yeah sometimes I would like stuff to be cheaper too.. but at the same time I value good products and good service... sometimes that comes with a price...
