Don is saying if you want the best, be prepared to pay. If you go cheap, you may get burned.

Herbie is saying that the Mini parts seem like a rip off.

I actually agree with both posts! But Herbie, do you KNOW you don't need bigger valves? Even a bit? On the exhaust maybe? I honestly didn't know the configuration that I'd end up with, but through discussions ended up with a configuration that I like, with new valves, seat work, retainers and seals. The combo of parts is nice for what I do with the car, and the price point eneded up a bit more than Dons stage one but less than his high dollar one.

While I'm happy with the value delivered, I honsestly don't know if it was the BEST value. And I probably never will.

Matt

 

i'll keep the stockers thx . yep i knew bigger wasn't necessary. from reading posts. it's all supply and demand . i understand this . our market is small as compared to the v8 market . just look at cams. you got scrick and what one or two others? when you buy one , it's sold as they're cam , and here are the lifts etc. not "how do you want it ground" and it's only 500.00 . ha . ha . the r + d has been done , what 3 yrs. ago now . are they still trying to recoupe r + d costs? please . enough i'm done . seems any car that's not mainstream but has a following gets the shaft.

 

I know of at least 3 different tuners that are doing or will shortly do cams. Either the price will drop, or the nuber of "off the shelf" grinds will increase, or both. Nice thing is, when others see mild cams going for $500 or so, they want in on that gravey and there you go! More choices.

Yeah, the Mini market gets a bit of a premium. But that amount is dropping.

One of the other things that hurts is the decline in the dollar. It makes it much harder to import other tuner product that's been done in Europe and the like. GTT makes some nice parts but after exchange rate conversion, it's a no go for a lot of people. That said, it separates the US from the other 650,000 minis sold since the new mini came out, and effectively shrinks our market even more!

Any of you tuners exporting? Now, that's starting to look like a good idea! The exchange rate alone should get some customers exited. I think M7 sells in Europe and Asia, and Mini Mania released some infor about MM Japan. So I guess this is the silver lining of the exchange rate cloud...

To bring this back a bit more on topic, I did find someone who'd do a regrind for about $250.... He's planning 2-4 cam profiles (not regrinds) for about $500 each. TSW said they were doing cams. M7 says thier "cosworth" cam is coming out soon. If any of these want to move volume, someone is going to have to drop from Shrick pricing!

Matt

Matt

 

A little research on the cost of Shrick Cams for other cars shows their Mini pricing is inline.

Dual Cams for a G60 run in the $1100 range

Single Cams for a large range of BMW's run in the $500 range.

Checked at multiple vendors.

As to head costs, I can't comment as the range was so high. I know I did a lot research and spoke to every head vendor, describing what I was looking for as a final result. I them did what Spider-X recommeded and drove a few cars in my area (Dallas) that had different setups. I also quired my mechanic on what heads he had worked with with reguards to quality and fit. Keeping my ultimate goal in mind I then made a decision that hopefully will work well for my application.

Caveat, the car is yet to be built, almost all the parts are on hand and build starts in about a week (fingers crossed)

 

[quote=Dr Obnxs;1390953]Don is saying if you want the best, be prepared to pay. If you go cheap, you may get burned.

Herbie is saying that the Mini parts seem like a rip off.

I actually agree with both posts! But Herbie, do you KNOW you don't need bigger valves? Even a bit? On the exhaust maybe? I honestly didn't know the configuration that I'd end up with, but through discussions ended up with a configuration that I like, with new valves, seat work, retainers and seals. The combo of parts is nice for what I do with the car, and the price point eneded up a bit more than Dons stage one but less than his high dollar one.

While I'm happy with the value delivered, I honsestly don't know if it was the BEST value. And I probably never will.


Dr. O,

That is exactly the point. What is the value per HP gained. The more I read the more I think it's best to keep things "stock" and focus on my driving! This is great stuff...

 

Driver skill is one. Handling, braking, and power are more. You are correct that most will benefit from driver training, but improvement to the other areas are possible, and can benefit drivers at all skill levels.

But no matter what, it's pay to play!

Matt

 

More boost with less heat . Somehow. And your head won't care.

 

i hear that!!! once the research is done i can't see the price being so high for a cam . but like you say all in the mini market is premium and i've got the freedom to move on if i don't like it . beating a dead horse now . trouble is our market is frozen thx to the 56 . no more s/c'd . now the prices will remain the same . no price wars for poor little consumer .

 

Just my opinion, norm. I had a couple small-block heads done back in the day, and they came out very nice and performed well.

Extrude honing, to me, seems to be the most economical way to get better performance from a stock head.

I would rather pay $500-$600 for a decent head, unassembled, no gaskets, etc., than have to pay for the vendors' summer cottage mortgage, a new machine for the shop, Lamborghini payment, etc.

 

The way my current setup is running (see this) I'm currently running a higher flow head with the stock valve train. It's not really a slouch either when it comes to power. It's still a daily drive and doesn't have any issue one might associate with a head/cam setup. I don't have idle issues or low-end torque issues (lack of torque that is).

Before you go off dropping any kind of money on parts you want to step back a bit and take a look at your overall plans. Don't make the mistake a lot of people have made and pick parts that don't work together well. Better to wait and know you have something that does what you want then have something that sort of does what you want immediately.

 

I have to jump in to comment on this "parts are a ripoff' as it tweaks me a bit.
I understand that you may think some things are expensive. It is relative to the person and their ideals in spending money to be honest. There are things I will nto spend money on and others that I will spend gobs of money but that is another story in itself.

Have you though of what goes into making these parts and tuning them to the car? MINI's are not on very street corner. People like Don, m7, DDM and others take the time to work with a car, fine tune by trial and error along with expertise the final product. This does not come cheap especially since there are so few MINI's... you can't compare the cost of a MINI head to that of a ford or chevy.

You have to pay for quality plain and simple. The old saying of you get what you pay for is true. Now I don't mean that if someone offers a $4000 head it is clearly better but there is a difference between that $600 head and the $2000 head. Please don't bring up the $700 pulley... there is something wrong but lets not go there.

The reason I am tweaked by thte comment is I get that with my business every now and then. People question why they should pay me more than the guy down the street. The reason is simple. My experience in the field coupled with the exceptional quality of service and product.

I am sure I can port and polish a head for you for a couple hundred $ if you like but I have never done it before, don't have a clue what I am doing and ulitmately you would be screwed all in the name of saving a few bucks.

The MINI is a hobby that is not cheap. If I wanted a faster car I would have bought a M3, a Carrera or an atom. But we bought into a car that we can have a lot of fun with and enjoy. Yes I want more power and have been chaing the head question myself but realize to do it right I will spend in the neighborhood of $1300-2000 to get there and then some.

I'm climbing down from my soapbox now.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs

Driver skill is one. Handling, braking, and power are more. You are correct that most will benefit from driver training, but improvement to the other areas are possible, and can benefit drivers at all skill levels.

Hey Matt,

Well put..If you read my post to Brad, I have worked on most of these areas.

• This is my second year of going to HPDE and first year doing Time Trials.
• I have done a complete make-over on the suspension and the car handles great.
• I have a Stoptech brake kit up front with upgraded rotors and pads in the rear.
• I also added a Quaife LSD.
• Now...I am trying to balance it out with a little more power upfront.
  
  I think there is actually a consensus developing in this post that for my needs, re-working the stock head with factory valves may be the best solution. Incidentally, I have not heard anyone sing the praises of adding a "sport" Schrick cam.

This post has been very helpful. Thanks to everyone!


DJDport66

PS. I agree that the Mini Cooper after market parts seem expensive but I have also owned a 914, 911 and 325is. Try buying triple-choke Weber carburetors for a 911s….holy crap! With over a million of the MC2’s built, there should be a reasonable supply of parts for years.

 

again.. you crack me up... you goin to AMVIV? If so it will be good to see you again...

 

Maybe, but it also opens a whole new market. With the new models resale on older ones will drop some opening the market a hole new group of people that buy teh car secondhand and will spend every extra $ they make working delivering pizza's etc while living at home on thier "new" Mini.

 

Xs 2

the car will fall into the hands of people who don't want to be ricers anymore so look for a whole new interest in our mods and a lot more new people to NAM asking " first mods" questions...... I think it's great

 

And yes, I'll be there, but without Alison or Cheryl. A new baby (currently called Bean, due to the bean like shape of all babies in early ultrasounds) is due in early May and Cheryl's body isn't too happy with being pregnant! Sorry, to dissapoint, but it's just me.

But that does mean my curfew is later!


Matt

 

Dr. O: i like name of your unborn child! i'd stick w/ it.....

 

agreed . but to someone not hooked up with a good shop it can be a matter of buying what's offered by vendors. and you don't see alot of advertising for a basic port and cc job . it's always stage this or that . but all is cool abacus and others are becoming known to more and more nammers .

 

i've had some experience with heads on bikes and v8s back some time ago . the typical vendor will spend time finding a formula that performs . once this is done it's a matter of man hours . lets say a shop is paying a guy as much as 50.00 per hr. now double that . he already knows what he wants to do with the head. so i'd say he bangs it out in 6 hrs . no more . so what 600.00 ? so double that for the 100 % mark up ...1200.00 . still wayyyyy far from 2000.00 . and is this guy being paid 50.00 per? i hope so . hey but thx for the 2 cents i'm all straightened out now .

 

Concerning the cylinder heads Carl Wegner builds for me you're way off on your idea of what happens. These are designed utilizing a computer, ported, and then go through multiple testing procedures (flow is just one such test). When a design is settled on the work is then digitized. Wegner then uses a 7-axis CNC machine to do most of the work. This is far advanced from what you will get at your local shop. Wegner’s reputation and results are why he has a firm grip on being the top independent engine builder in both Busch and Truck. He is also the builder of the new LS1 spec engine. Professional road race teams also use his services but they don’t want it known so it stays hush.

 

okay so every head is designed different ? meaning every head comes out different? no stage one two and three? by being automated ; i take back the hourly pay figure . it's now being done a hell of alot faster . and with more predictable results .meaning less after testing . i had no idea every mini head was so different and special . thx for clearing that up . my apologies to all concerned .

 

let's cut out all the bull .. the market will bear a certain price and none of the popular vendors are gonna start a suicidal price war . so all price accordingly .

 

HH -- I do not expect you to be a customer but what I am doing is trying to educate those who read this but do not post.
R&D is costly; more costly then you want to know about. And that cost gets added to the job. The reason CNCed heads are desirable is precisely because of repeatability.
Price -- The most expensive head I advertise for the Mini is $2325. That is (very) cheap compared to what we put on our road race cars!

 

Don, I understand what you're saying, and I also hear where herbie is coming from.
Is it not possible for you(or any vendor that does heads) to offer a decent one for $600-$800?
That would be your Stage 1, Stage 2=$1250, Stage 3=$2325, etc
I bet you wouldn't be able to fill the orders fast enough.

 

but remember, this ISN"T a 350 Cheby! If you really want a cheap car to mod, get yourself a Mustang or something like that.

But you'll blow all your savings trying to get it to handle well!

Low volume = high costs!

And for all you who think there's tons of gold in heads... What percentage of Mini buyers will every buy a head? 1%? No way.... 0.1% Probably still high...
with 200k Minis in the US, each thenth of one percent is 200 cars.

Now, how many shops are doing heads. Let's make the math easy and say 10. So if each one of them were to sell 25 heads, you'd be over 0.1% of all the Minis in the country! So, if you're going into this business, you have to add quite a premium per head to recoup start up costs (and if you think a CNC machine makes the labor go away, ever priced one of them?)

So, while I agree a lot of parts are overpiced, if you take a market view and work the numbers it is a miracle any of us can get a head at all!

On another point. If you don't have Champagne tastes, why worry about what Champagne costs? Go buy your beverage of choise, and be happy.

Another point. All this "stage X" crap is crap. There is no standard across the industry as to what a stage is, so it's just a marketing destinction to get one to appreciate the degree of seriousness (?) in the mod. One vendors stage 3 is going to be more nasty than their stage 1, but you'll never compare one vendors Stages to another.....

Matt