Drivetrain Bad experience with Alta Twubo kit
Wothout hear ALTA's side to this story
I AM YET TO HEAR OF A SINGLE TWINCHARGE KIT THAT HAS BEEN ISSUE FREE, FOR ANY OF ITS CUTOMERS!!!
I've heard complaints about the kits from multiple vendors and consumers, first hand and on NAM, reports of some spending 4k fdor a kit, 10k for the install, 10k in repairs and then an additional 10k just to get the kit removed, not a penny covered by the after market company. I sadly am not the slightest bit suprised to hear about issues with the kit, what I do find suprising and slightly disturbing is the manner the situation was handled, I'd be interested to hear the other side of this story.
I AM YET TO HEAR OF A SINGLE TWINCHARGE KIT THAT HAS BEEN ISSUE FREE, FOR ANY OF ITS CUTOMERS!!!
I've heard complaints about the kits from multiple vendors and consumers, first hand and on NAM, reports of some spending 4k fdor a kit, 10k for the install, 10k in repairs and then an additional 10k just to get the kit removed, not a penny covered by the after market company. I sadly am not the slightest bit suprised to hear about issues with the kit, what I do find suprising and slightly disturbing is the manner the situation was handled, I'd be interested to hear the other side of this story.
Same can be said for selling faulty products and poor customer service.
Not to mention lack of vendor support.
Like I said I'd be very interested to hear the offical ALTA side of the story regarding sucha situation.
BTW:Can you link to the info you're basing your statements on, I don't believe everything I read, but if can at least support it with other's comments it gives you at least a little credibility.
Not to mention lack of vendor support.Like I said I'd be very interested to hear the offical ALTA side of the story regarding sucha situation.
BTW:Can you link to the info you're basing your statements on, I don't believe everything I read, but if can at least support it with other's comments it gives you at least a little credibility.
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Flitwick UK
From what I've seen the manfold seems to be to short and stubby not to mention not properly braced. Add to that the fact that the turbo (which weighs more than the manifold) hangs from it. In my mind it would seem like a larger fella hanging from a spindly tree branch...somethings gonna break.
I've tried to contact Alta about there kit. I wanted to try and customize the turbo a little more to see if I can get better spool up than what Trickle told me he was getting. There answer was to run a 15% pulley with the kit or spend a few grand and get an upgraded final drive gear set such as the one Helix offers. They were supposed to send me some correspondance via email and/or phone. That was about a month and a half ago....
Then there was Mini Madness. George gave me the speech on how Twin Charges suck and the other vendors were doing it all wrong and the key to it all is a standalone...which he can't replicate. We chatted for quite a while about his setup which was actually pleasant and informative. He too was supposed to send me pics and a price breakdown via phone or email. That was about 2 months ago.
On to Fireballed. Well Hubie and Brian have both been quite helpful on the phone. I have chatted with both of them. I mentioned to them that I would like to get the kit piece by piece as it's a little easier for me than shelling out $6000 at once plus the fact that i am still unsure of whether I will switch to turbo only and / or a front mount intercooler. I will admit i am a little frustrated at the fact that no one as of yet has sent me the pricing and pics i have requested (seems to be a trend) but with the manifold as a first purchase i will be able to get the ball rolling between Xmas and New years...oh ya!!!
Seann
I've tried to contact Alta about there kit. I wanted to try and customize the turbo a little more to see if I can get better spool up than what Trickle told me he was getting. There answer was to run a 15% pulley with the kit or spend a few grand and get an upgraded final drive gear set such as the one Helix offers. They were supposed to send me some correspondance via email and/or phone. That was about a month and a half ago....
Then there was Mini Madness. George gave me the speech on how Twin Charges suck and the other vendors were doing it all wrong and the key to it all is a standalone...which he can't replicate. We chatted for quite a while about his setup which was actually pleasant and informative. He too was supposed to send me pics and a price breakdown via phone or email. That was about 2 months ago.
On to Fireballed. Well Hubie and Brian have both been quite helpful on the phone. I have chatted with both of them. I mentioned to them that I would like to get the kit piece by piece as it's a little easier for me than shelling out $6000 at once plus the fact that i am still unsure of whether I will switch to turbo only and / or a front mount intercooler. I will admit i am a little frustrated at the fact that no one as of yet has sent me the pricing and pics i have requested (seems to be a trend) but with the manifold as a first purchase i will be able to get the ball rolling between Xmas and New years...oh ya!!!
Seann
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4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 556
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From: kailua, hawaii
bad experience
I know all about the on going issue. And, I know you have been bad mouthing the kit on this forum since day one, even when you were a dealer for Alta, and I'm sure Alta did not appreciate that. It seems like Mr. Trickle has gotten his replacement manifolds and he isn't even a dealer. To me it seems like you went about this whole situation the wrong way, especially for being an Alta dealer.
Could you find my bad mouthing post? I even bragged about their customer service after purchasing the kit.
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Joined: Feb 2006
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https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...t=75436&page=3
That thread is full of them. Even the most minute problems you made a big deal about. I have said all I wanted to say, now I'll go back to standing in the corner.
That thread is full of them. Even the most minute problems you made a big deal about. I have said all I wanted to say, now I'll go back to standing in the corner.
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4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 556
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From: kailua, hawaii
bad experience
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...t=75436&page=3
That thread is full of them. Even the most minute problems you made a big deal about. I have said all I wanted to say, now I'll go back to standing in the corner.
That thread is full of them. Even the most minute problems you made a big deal about. I have said all I wanted to say, now I'll go back to standing in the corner.
cause you sound just like them
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...t=75436&page=3
That thread is full of them. Even the most minute problems you made a big deal about. I have said all I wanted to say, now I'll go back to standing in the corner.
That thread is full of them. Even the most minute problems you made a big deal about. I have said all I wanted to say, now I'll go back to standing in the corner.
Why has this sparked sucha debate? Isn't the issue at hand the kit not complaining?
Here is something I found from the only other thread you've posted in
All n' all this is expiremental ground, there are a lot of variables that goes along with this kit. If I would have a new Mini, I would probably steer away from twincharging it. Once you go twin, there is pretty much no going back. I have a pile of parts that is stacking up that I have removed, and some of the parts needed to be altered in a manner that it can never go back. This car will stay twinned the rest of its life now. If you lear would decide you would like to go this route, I am available to help answer any questions you may have. I am currently working up a complete write-up of this kit that will also accompany the Alta install instructions.
I'm done this doesn't seem like its worth the hassle can someone pass me the
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4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 556
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From: kailua, hawaii
but if you never tried then you will never find out. Yes, I didn't expect to end up this way too.
I know all about the on going issue. And, I know you have been bad mouthing the kit on this forum since day one, even when you were a dealer for Alta, and I'm sure Alta did not appreciate that. It seems like Mr. Trickle has gotten his replacement manifolds and he isn't even a dealer. To me it seems like you went about this whole situation the wrong way, especially for being an Alta dealer.
As for him "bitching" I really disagree! in the other post you quoted he was simply telling the kid about what has happened to him with the same product. I would expect this with any product being discussed! think if their pulleys were failing, and people were experiencing the SAME problems. Do you think they wouldnt post about them? I would hope they did so others wouldnt have to be put through the same! after all we are a community sharing a common joy. if that joy is at risk, I would say something.
The main issue here, is that there is a defective Manifold. Other than that the kit works as it should. I have posted in the thread referenced above about many different things along the way. I knew going into this that I was going to be pretty much beta testing this kit, as there was no real world examples out there to reference. Simply put, I dont mind getting the header issue sorted out, but thats just me, patiant. I really enjoy all the installing and removal. Each time I remove the turbo, I can analyze how I can improve the kit and have done so with change out of coolant lines and the such. I bought this kit because I was the one who had control over everything but the actual manufacturing of the hardparts. I am not trying to make any excuses for the lack in thorough testing on Alta's front, as I do feel they should of tested this. Maybe they did, but it seems like they should of ran into the same issues with the header. They did come out with a braced version of the header, but it fails just the same. Like I mentioned the 3rd revision will be thoroughly tested by me regardless. If it fails as well, then I will post it as that.
In all of this I am not overly concerned if Alta can not get a header to last, I will just make my own. I have enough data logged that I feel I can fab up a header that will work. The only downside is it will change out my downpipe and compressor side output piping. Like I said, I dont mind, as I like doing this sort of thing. Is it annoying? Sure, and would I deem it acceptable to others that cant do this, no. Would I ever go back to non-turbo? Hell no....
In all of this I am not overly concerned if Alta can not get a header to last, I will just make my own. I have enough data logged that I feel I can fab up a header that will work. The only downside is it will change out my downpipe and compressor side output piping. Like I said, I dont mind, as I like doing this sort of thing. Is it annoying? Sure, and would I deem it acceptable to others that cant do this, no. Would I ever go back to non-turbo? Hell no....
I will agree the SPI manifold is a better designed and assembled header. The welds are thicker at the flanges & if you look on the inside of the turbo inlet, the welds are on the inside.The other noticeable difference is how the tubing was assembled and welded. The tubing wasnt slid into each other like parts of the Alta header. Not that that is a major issue, but it does factor into overlap on the inside, which some of my headers have had. Talk about blockage.
We did get a price on that header, but we would also need the DP and the compressor output piping. Not a major issue, but the one that is......the gt3071r doesnt quite have enough room against the firewall, unless you use a hammer and make some room. To me, not an issue, but I am sure to others, that would not be an option.
We did get a price on that header, but we would also need the DP and the compressor output piping. Not a major issue, but the one that is......the gt3071r doesnt quite have enough room against the firewall, unless you use a hammer and make some room. To me, not an issue, but I am sure to others, that would not be an option.
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 644
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From: Washington, PA
Welcome to NAM, 2003. These kind of unsupportable opinions have been debated ad nauseum.
I applaud anybody with the guts to post bad experiences here. Alta is able to post on this forum. Where are they? As for it being a good kit other than the manifold...that may be true, but it's like saying a car is good except for its frame. The manifold is an integral part of the setup.
I applaud anybody with the guts to post bad experiences here. Alta is able to post on this forum. Where are they? As for it being a good kit other than the manifold...that may be true, but it's like saying a car is good except for its frame. The manifold is an integral part of the setup.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
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Welcome to NAM, 2003. These kind of unsupportable opinions have been debated ad nauseum.
I applaud anybody with the guts to post bad experiences here. Alta is able to post on this forum. Where are they? As for it being a good kit other than the manifold...that may be true, but it's like saying a car is good except for its frame. The manifold is an integral part of the setup.
I applaud anybody with the guts to post bad experiences here. Alta is able to post on this forum. Where are they? As for it being a good kit other than the manifold...that may be true, but it's like saying a car is good except for its frame. The manifold is an integral part of the setup.
I agree with George that stand alone turbo makes sense rather than twin charge..... JMO
this is the reason the 62 kit is taking so long..... Dave (DDM) is really making sure it is right before going broadband...... (much to the frustration of some)
Eastside..... this sucks for you and speaking as a manufacturers rep for 25 years, there is no excuse for the way you are being treated IMO...... they should at least refund your money and give you some kind of "store credit" for all your lost time..... goood luck
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,184
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From: north seacoast ,Ma.USA
Just as an afterthought on this discussion.....when I have had a problem with a vendor on this site, I have contacted Mark Ferguson directly and asked him to step in and find out what's going on , as it is definately in his best interest to get both sides of a story and figure out if he has a problem vendor on his hands. For Alta, who as someone pointed out monitors this site, not to have come forward to answer these charges is interesting to say the least.It sounds to me that this installer did his own due diligence in trying to resolve this with Alta before coming forward in open forum as a last resort. I WOULD love to hear Alta's side of this story.(there are ALWAYS 2 sides 
)
)
I will say that Eastside's experience mirrors my own with Perrin/Alta in other markets. Blaming the install instead of the design. Dragging feet on a fix or a refund. Refusal to speak on the phone, hiding behind email and voicemail. Luckily, I learned my lesson on a set of $400 suspension pieces instead of a more expensive product.
poignant assessment from another car forum:
poignant assessment from another car forum:
1. It's never their responsibility because (multiple choice option on this one):
3. Jeff will hide and not speak with customers directly (he knows his products don't cut the mustard).
4. Jeff will resolve the matter over email by offering a discount on more shoddy Perrin parts. (don't do it!!)
5. The 'solution' will be to buy properly designed replacement parts (as Perrin relies on it's n00b customers to do beta testing)
6. It's not Perrin's fault, you were silly enough to buy from them in the first place!! (see #1)
Round and round we go. Weeeee!! Isn't spending alot of money fun!!!
a. your install skills are obviously lacking
b. your car is different than most
c. it's the subcontractor's fault (whom Perrin pays for the work)
d. good installers don't need proper instructions (related to 1a)
2. Adam will be arrogant and difficult to deal with (avoid him if you can help it).3. Jeff will hide and not speak with customers directly (he knows his products don't cut the mustard).
4. Jeff will resolve the matter over email by offering a discount on more shoddy Perrin parts. (don't do it!!)
5. The 'solution' will be to buy properly designed replacement parts (as Perrin relies on it's n00b customers to do beta testing)
6. It's not Perrin's fault, you were silly enough to buy from them in the first place!! (see #1)
Round and round we go. Weeeee!! Isn't spending alot of money fun!!!
7th Gear
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,559
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From: Orange County NY
Rectify it how? Alta has not giving his deposit back, returned calls or fixed a defective product. If Alta stepped up and work with him he never would have had to bring it to the forums. This is now just the result of the pain he is going through on spending a good amount of time/money and not getting support when needed.
You won't see another Alta part on my car.
You won't see another Alta part on my car.
Not at all, all the info I have can be found right here on this forum. I just think it's rediculous that a vendor on this forum is bad mouthing a product. He should be helping to rectify the situation for his and all other Alta customers, not crying about it, that's the consumers job. What he is doing is bad for business, and very irresponsible.
4th Gear
Joined: May 2006
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there is only one thing that eastsidemini did wrong in my estimation, and that was putting the second faulty designed manifold on there when he knew that it could have possibly been faulty, b/c he was trying to rush things for the car show. Alta probably should have pulled the product when they discovered the manifold was faulty. It was nice of them to try and accomodate him for the car show though, but they should have explicitly warned him that the second one might crack too (if they had a second design underway, they clearly knew it was a problem at that point).
They did right by telling him they would send him a new one of a new design once the first one cracked. You cannot expect OEM type customer service and warranty handling from an aftermarket parts company, they are simply to low volume of a company to support their product in the same way as an OEM (what should they have done, give you a loaner Twurbo car for the car show or something?). Should they have done everything in their power to rectify the situation though, yes, and unless you have the new design manifold in hand, its hard to say that they have done that. I'll agree.
Do you have the new design manifold yet?
If the new design manifold has not been released yet, then the product should be pulled from the shelves until it is done, as its clearly a design flaw at this point, but proving that they KNEW it was a design flaw when they sold you your kit is a more difficult proposition. . .
They did right by telling him they would send him a new one of a new design once the first one cracked. You cannot expect OEM type customer service and warranty handling from an aftermarket parts company, they are simply to low volume of a company to support their product in the same way as an OEM (what should they have done, give you a loaner Twurbo car for the car show or something?). Should they have done everything in their power to rectify the situation though, yes, and unless you have the new design manifold in hand, its hard to say that they have done that. I'll agree.
Do you have the new design manifold yet?
If the new design manifold has not been released yet, then the product should be pulled from the shelves until it is done, as its clearly a design flaw at this point, but proving that they KNEW it was a design flaw when they sold you your kit is a more difficult proposition. . .
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 190
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From: Boston, MA
I'm not quite sure why folks are surprised about cracked manifolds... Turbo manifolds are REALLY hard to do in general, and when you insulate them (as in the TIGHT MINI engine bay) they are subject to some NASTY heat cycling. If I were to venture a guess here, I'd say that these manifolds have not been heat-treated after welding, nor have they been properly coated to handle the heat-load. Poorly welded and treated stainless steel would crack from the VIBRATION alone, nevermind the heat!
The stock manifold is cast-iron for more reasons than cost... cast iron handles heat cycling really well, and the lack of welds eliminates the local stresses that cause cracking. In this sort of application, where the manifold is seeing thousands of degrees F each time you drive it, you really need an amazing manifold to prevent this sort of failure.
I'd look for someone to try and make a Iconel manifold with a ceramic coating on it to handle these heat loads. That and I would look into getting more cooling to this part of the engine (hood vents maybe). Yes this would cost thousands of dollars but its probably the _right_ way to do it.
The other option is to weld up some MILD steel (maybe even 4130) and get it Jet-Hot coated to prevent corrosion. It would be less likely to crack because the material can handle the heat cycling a bit better, but this would still need heat-treating to normalize the welds and prevent cracking.
Anyway, sorry to hear about your troubles... its a bad situation, and thanks for the warning!
RM2k5
The stock manifold is cast-iron for more reasons than cost... cast iron handles heat cycling really well, and the lack of welds eliminates the local stresses that cause cracking. In this sort of application, where the manifold is seeing thousands of degrees F each time you drive it, you really need an amazing manifold to prevent this sort of failure.
I'd look for someone to try and make a Iconel manifold with a ceramic coating on it to handle these heat loads. That and I would look into getting more cooling to this part of the engine (hood vents maybe). Yes this would cost thousands of dollars but its probably the _right_ way to do it.
The other option is to weld up some MILD steel (maybe even 4130) and get it Jet-Hot coated to prevent corrosion. It would be less likely to crack because the material can handle the heat cycling a bit better, but this would still need heat-treating to normalize the welds and prevent cracking.
Anyway, sorry to hear about your troubles... its a bad situation, and thanks for the warning!
RM2k5
Let me just say the newest manifold (version 3) of which I have in stock now is an almost complete redesign over their previous manifolds. I have had my share of hiccups along the way but Jeff and Alta have always helped me out and never just left me or my customers hanging.
Alta is a huge reason there is an abundance of aftermarket MINI parts available now. I just dont think its fair to discount all they have done as a business for this one instance.
Alta is a huge reason there is an abundance of aftermarket MINI parts available now. I just dont think its fair to discount all they have done as a business for this one instance.
Smaller A/M company's either give 110% C/ser or they will not survive in such a harsh market.... IMO
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4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 556
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From: kailua, hawaii
bad experience
I will say that Eastside's experience mirrors my own with Perrin/Alta in other markets. Blaming the install instead of the design. Dragging feet on a fix or a refund. Refusal to speak on the phone, hiding behind email and voicemail. Luckily, I learned my lesson on a set of $400 suspension pieces instead of a more expensive product.
poignant assessment from another car forum:
poignant assessment from another car forum:
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4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
From: kailua, hawaii
bad experience
Boards like NAM are the best thing that ever happened to the consumer.... rapid transfer of info positive or negative.... issues can be debated and vendors held accountable much more efficently...... if someone calls out a vendor others can support or refute...... post away.....prior there was little to no recourse publically
I agree with George that stand alone turbo makes sense rather than twin charge..... JMO
this is the reason the 62 kit is taking so long..... Dave (DDM) is really making sure it is right before going broadband...... (much to the frustration of some)
Eastside..... this sucks for you and speaking as a manufacturers rep for 25 years, there is no excuse for the way you are being treated IMO...... they should at least refund your money and give you some kind of "store credit" for all your lost time..... goood luck
I agree with George that stand alone turbo makes sense rather than twin charge..... JMO
this is the reason the 62 kit is taking so long..... Dave (DDM) is really making sure it is right before going broadband...... (much to the frustration of some)
Eastside..... this sucks for you and speaking as a manufacturers rep for 25 years, there is no excuse for the way you are being treated IMO...... they should at least refund your money and give you some kind of "store credit" for all your lost time..... goood luck