My point is only that you want to build max IC effciency as soon as possible.
In the case of Dr.Phils "Umongo scoop" - it should get to max IC effciency sooner than anything else. I think the theory is a good one and like the thread progression BUT its a balance of achieving thermal efficiency and added cool air to the CAI.

On another ............

I think we are letting DrPhil off easy - I say we raise the bar . I want to see a throttle body type opening for the CAI air side - once IC max effciency is achieved this sucker opens up taping the true excess air.

go DrPhil go

 

Oy vey! Here's where I stand. Too busy... OK, now I have that off my chest.
I will get the temperature probes installed and design a testing regime. I will see if I can get the duct made out of CF or other fiber. I will see if I can make it a little more adaptable to other scoops, or variations on scoops so that even if you have a Ram, or DF scoop, you could still use the Fresh Air Diverter (FAD, for short.) (rather than FAME, fresh air: more entry.)
I would like to get the new M7 IC boots first, so I can do the probes and the boots all at the same time, but we'll have to see.
Do we know anything about the airflow required to max out the DFIC? or the OEM IC for that matter? You know, if Randy Webb can't get a butterfly on his exhaust, how do you think I'll ever get one on the FAD? A plug for rainy days is going to be hard enough!

Hope you all have a great weekend. I'm off home for a cocktail!

 

Maybe i'm just not getting this.

In this pic, I don't see the entire scoop area being fed into the DFIC. Even if the diverter for the airbox wasn't there, the entire scoop area would not be feeding the DFIC. Without the airbox diverter, the air entering the scoop just smacks into the IC outlet horn. Unless you have something like this...

...or the actual DFIC scoop, then the entire scoop area is fed into the DFIC.
You could have the RHS(?) diverter stick out of the scoop a foot, and you would be "taking air" that was otherwise going to the IC.

Maybe I need to see more detailed pics of the setup. I still don't think you are taking anything away from the DFIC, at any speed.

 

Thanks for understanding what I meant and hopefully clearing it up with partsman.

Making a mold of your current design shouldn't be all that hard.
Mass producing it is a bit harder


Good luck and you're welcome. I hope it's useful.

 

[quote=DrPhilGandini;1220675] A plug for rainy days is going to be hard enough! [quote]

Oh, stick a sock in it!

Problem solved, next.

 

I'm puzzled about several references in this thread suggesting there is a limit to the amount of air that can flow thru an IC (referring to the external flow, not the internal). The IC flow should be proportional to the pressure differential across it, until the airspeed gets up to the speed of sound. I don't think this is a limit we need to worry about!

The question of whether the pressurized air from the scoop is better spent cooling the IC or diverted to the intake path, though, is worth pondering. As I recall, the Nusselt number increases proportionally to the Reynolds number to the 0.8 power. The Nusselt number represents the enhancement of heat transfer due to convection. The Reynolds number is the ratio of inertial to viscous forces in the flowing air, but for this discussion we can think of it as proportional to air velocity across the IC. The point here is that doubling the air flow across the IC will not cut in half the resistance to heat flow out of the IC, but will have somewhat less benefit than this. In addition, the driving force for heat transfer out of the IC is proportional to the temp difference between the air inside and outside the IC, and as these get closer to one another (by increasing air velocity, for example), it gets harder and harder to extract the last little bit of heat.

So, if one has a very efficient scoop/IC set-up, it is seems likely that diverting some of the air to the intake will produce greater post IC air density than using all the air just for IC cooling.

 

"So, if one has a very efficient scoop/IC set-up, it is seems likely that diverting some of the air to the intake will produce greater post IC air density than using all the air just for IC cooling."

Inimini, I think that's exactly the Doc is going.
With a funnel you will create velocity - Here is where the argument lies. M7 designed a scoop just for their DFIC to compliment their "system". Some say that that this M7 scoop is necessary for their DFIC to be optimized ( there are posts on NAM that support this ). If the air charge dencity from the CAI is greater, there's no loss & what the Doc has experienced supports this with a positive result.

What I don't see is presure on the vendors to produce numbers, only the end users ( Dr O with the DFIC ) & people like Dr Phill who have an idea that he is willing to shrare. If results are to be found, wait till Phill is ready to relate a detailed plan & then you can try it.

 

I think it's the amount of air in a given time period that is the question.

The IC is not different than any body that flows. It's ideal would be xCFM. Once the air presented to the front of the IC exceeds that it will stack air.
Flow being proportional to the pressure differential only works up to that ideal, not past.

It cannot flow more than it's ideal xCFM. What I don't know and have never seen is the calculates CFM for any IC. Yes through the external passages not internal.

Nusselt I don't know but your reference to the Reynolds number rings a faint and forgotten bell. That would explain why all the MINI ICs have the same basic fin density and tube spacing. Internally they vary more though.

 

Obe, "The IC is not different than any body that flows. It's ideal would be xCFM. Once the air presented to the front of the IC exceeds that it will stack air.
Flow being proportional to the pressure differential only works up to that ideal, not past." Exactly. This is why Dr Phills deal works.

Nusselt? A villa in the north of England? Something I've never heard of. I claim just stupid... I thought I knew these things...guess not

Not all the after market ICs for the mini have the same fin density. The Forge is pretty much the same as their FMICs which allow them to collect a larger volume of air at a higher rate. Internal core is where there should not be much restriction. The GRS looks like a good high flow core design ( you & I posted cores ) as is the Forge ( on a flow bench there is almost no presure drop ).
Hey Obe, any luck with the Unichip?

 

Aha! Until this theoretical stacking occurs then the IC core will be robbed of some airflow.
The question though is what's the impact?
Need......more....data.... Spock!
Haven't seen a Forge unit so I'll gladly plead ignorance on that one.
Guess I need to get off my butt and do an actual fin count

Not done much in the mod arena lately. Getting the financing and design work done to finally add a garage to my house.
Figure I deserve it after not having one for over 2 decades

I do of course have plans to "skim" the budget for some goodies.

 

Sorry, it just doesn't work this way until the flow becomes supersonic. The IC "stacks" air anytime air is flowing into it. As the air velocity heading towards the IC increases, the pressure just ahead of the IC increases proportional to the flow thru the IC. Check out any fluids textbook. There is no "ideal" air velocity beyond which the additional upstream pressure will not generate increased flow. Discontinuities like this are actually pretty rare in physical systems, unless there are quantum effects ...

 

I think I have it now Thannks.
Although you are saying what I was trying to about the air stacking though. If you provide a bleed for that stacked air that presents a lower resistance route the air will use it. Correct?
This has the potential of robbing the IC of enouigh air to have a negative impact.
Don't know but someone <cough> Dr Phil </cough> needs to measure this

 

You know, I'd love to measure all of this, but in reality I haven't a clue how to do it. Once I get the thermocouples installed, I will measure ambient, pre and post IC temps under certain, as yet undetermined, conditions. My treatments, or controls, will be alternative scoops as I have easy access to OEM, DF and my RBH-DF (I just sold my CF-Ram scoop) scoops. I can block off the airbox diverter, and I can reinstall my modified ram diverter that I used with the wide, deep scoop. I'm hoping that there's enough variation to detect some differences. I think I could actually test to see if what the DFIC does without any additional mods, including scoop, or water spray bar...

cheers,

 

This I would like to see...

Your project:
There are all kinds of things you can do - If you want to spend the time.
I believe your solution is sound. And.. Why not?
For one individual to test a potential product & expect that the result will be the same for all other applications, of same, is not possible. Consumables like spark plugs, fuel injector cleaner, car wash, tooth paste are pretty much an individual choice & so are auto performance parts. The difference is - free samples of tooth past are left by the tooth paste guy in your mail box.
Bottom line - when you have a working plan, others with a DFIC, or not, can try it too.

 

Update: Got the VR IC temperature gauge and probes today - woohoo! The probes are too big to fit in the 1/8 NPT bungs on the DFIC as MSFITOY indicated. Even if an adapter could be made, they wouldn't even get into the airstream, so would be measuring ambient around the casting. I will drill and place the probes in the middle of the airstream just as Sid did. The meter is tiny, and will fit almost anywhere on the dash.
I hope there's enough time over Thanksgiving for an install, and I will start taking readings.
The whole Alta II - scoop thing is buggin me, btw. I will try to provide numbers that indicate any differences between scoops if they exist, statistically that is.

cheers,

 

Can you tell what type TC's they are, J,K...?

 

It's a package that comes from Virtual Racing. MSFITOY uses it. It comes with very little documentation, and none on the probes. They are 1" long, 1/4" diameter. The gauge is made by Davtron. That's all I know...sorry.

 

How much and is there a decent amount of wire for placing the gauge anywhere in the cockpit?

This is a far neater solution than what I currently have.

Thanks You too Sid

 

Yes, it has plenty of cable and comes with quick disconnects so you can remove the DFIC along with the probes