Stink eye??? Is there a cure?

The Docs scoop is something that will work for just about any application, VC or DFIC. At 1 point I removed the OE scoop & found that the under hood temps were greatly reduced. At this point the OE scoop is back on the car & other than an isolater under the IC, there are no diverters directing air anywhere, just a fence at the back of the IC. It's the minimalist approach, less is more. Yesterday was in the low 70s, pounded the snots out of the car for about 1/2 hour, drove through downtown traffic for 10 - 15 minutes. The result was suprising. Can't say what the IAT was but the horn was barely warm, while the SC side was almost too hot to touch. The aluminum tube for the K&N was cool, maybe ambient. With Phils scoop & a few more fences under the hood I believe the underhood heat can be controled as well as delivering good air to the IC & CAI.......
Now, this car realy does feel like 220 horses.

As Dr Phil suggested, there should be a thread, maybe "Air Control".... And rain is a problem that needs attention.

 

Just my opinion but I don't buy the "unused air theory" that Randy put out there. The more air that enters the scoop the more air pressure builds up thus the more air that is pushed thru the IC. I believe this air pressure is most important for a horizontal IC because it is a less natural air path than a vertical IC.

Having said this - this thread is different because the scoop was increased even farther so new air is being directed to the CAI not redirected IC air.

The question is - which is a better benefit for this new air? directing it to the iC or CAI? Another question is can you ever direct too much air to an IC?

 

I don't see this as a problem at all. You have to figure even in a heavy rain, the little water that will enter DrPhil's duct will be mixed with a good amount of air, which will then probably turn it into mist. Then it must get past the diverter duct, the air filter, the induction hose, the throttle body, the SC inlet, the SC itself, the SC outlet horn, the IC, the IC outlet horn, and the intake manifold. If there is water in there that doesn't vaporize at the SC and SC outlet horn, then you are driving a MINI submarine at this point and rain water is not your biggest concern.
The only way water will be a concern is if you are filling the airbox up with a garden hose with the engine running, or the front of the car is submerged.

 

 

I'm sure there's a specific limit to the amount of air that can flow through any IC. Once your input exceeds that then you will have potential flow you can tap without parasitic losses.
Where and when that is I'll leave to the scientists.
I do know, and have data to show, that the scoop I have which actually has a smaller opening than stock improves IC temps.

Very cool thread and I really wish DrPhil had some measurement equipment

 

You have a valid point. But.
No you won't hydrolock, but enough water is a problem. Raceing with a headlight duct, in the rain, with a 4" tube directed to the carbs caused big time problems with the first 2 cylinders on my car. This is not realy a good comparison since, as you point out - there are many other components on the Mini S that run interference & would tend to vaporize the water. However there has been enough heavy rain in this part of the country that the volume of water that could be ingested could be a serious problem ( look at the OE intake from above the radiator to the air box) as it was on my race car ( the duct had to be removed in heavy rain ). My concern would be on a long drive, with sustained heavy rain, at highway speeds, you could be pulling several gallons per hour, especialy if you are in someones wake.
The intake solution you have may address the water better than Dr Phills.
The solution that I am looking at uses existing holes in the front of the hood support ( on the later models these are covered with black plastic plugs ). These holes lead to the front of the radiator. Behind the lower grill there is a ton of room for an intake. The last piece of the ducting would require cutting the hood liner. The duct ends up clearing the IC & the inlet horn.
Bottom line, this thread rules as it addresses many issues.

 

I don't disagree. The sooner you hit this limit the better for the IC is working at its max potential sooner. So if you had a way to direct 100% the air to the IC and once it reached this limit it directed it to the CAI then you get max IC efficiency and the excess air benefitting the CAI.

My concern is re-directing air from the IC that delays or does not permit the IC reaching its max potential as soon as possible. This is what I believe the DFIC does over a horizontal unit - thus its benefit as a mod.

 

The outlet of DrPhil's diverter can be blocked off if one encounters heavy rain for extended periods, then opened back up once the rain stops.

I would like to see a sketch or drawing of your idea, if you could.

 

Its open up the thought door for sure.

For me its made me wonder if one could increase the size of the stock CAI scoop? The seems to room to the left to increase at least 50%. Then the question is could the stock tubing (from stock cscoop to CAI box) handle this additional air or would it have to be increased?

I changed my front grill and in the process of doing so removed the triangular plastic that is on both sides of the stock grill. Anyone have a stock scoop they aren't using - perhaps I could grapg two together to create a large scoop?

 

With DrPhil's setup, I don't see any air being taken away from the IC. The full face of the custom bonnet scoop is in the air stream. The diverter is just splitting the stream as it enters the bonnet. At speed, i'm sure his DFIC is getting all it can take.

 

I'll have something in another few days. What I can tell you is the ducting between the hood support & the hood is simple round foam slide in & shaped to fit the hole & the exit leading to the air box. If you try it you'll see where I'm going with the idea. If you are using an areo grill or an M7 the inlet would fasten to it ( size & flange shape is optional at this point ).

 

Realy, the stock unit is not bad. The location is not that desireable as it sits on the top of the radiator. But as long as you are moving..... Partsmans scoop would solve that problem. There was a time I was buliding some extensions to fit the stock location then pick the colder air up from the lower part of the hood grill. Another Idea was to run a duct from the stock location to an M7 air diverter that had a scoop mounted to the bottom of it facing the front lower grill.

 

OK, I ordered a VR IC gauge this morning, damn it! This is the one that Sid has, with 2 probes. All I need are the adapters that will fit the probes to the 1/8" NPT bungs in the DFIC. Hopefully I can get ambient, inlet and outlet temps...

As for the rain. I live in Albuquerque so it's not a big problem for me...but if it was what about a small shield at the entrance of the duct to the airbox that prevents any water from actually contacting the filter? Any water that gets in would fall to the bottom of the airbox which appears to be designed to gather debris and any fluids that enter the box. I also agree with the argument that any water that gets in the airbox has a tough row to hoe to get into the cylinders. Air already contains some moisture, even here in New Mexico, and it gets "squeezed" out of the charge by the engine (witness the water dripping from exhaust pipes.)
Anyway, I conclude that water is just not a big problem unless your car is under about 4 ft of it!

cheers,

 

Good for you Phil! I couldn't find any adapter to mount to the NTP bungs...the fitting are too close in diameter...you'll need to bore two holes as I did from below in the center of the airflow

This is my DFIC looking from underneith...the two cables at each end are the probes...



I mounted the gauge into the dash panel to the right of the steering column...you'll need to remove the panel and hog out the foam/plastic to make clearance...



Good Luck!

 

Sid, will that display IN and OUT at the same time? or just the difference between the two?

 

It displays only IN or OUT or Difference...

 

The question is "at what speed?"

With the air split, for grins let's say 60/40, you will absolutely have to be traveling at a higher rate of speed before you acheive the maximum flow the IC can handle. NOw if DPG were always traveling 100MPH then it's a mott point but I'm assuming he doesn't. If I recall he isn't a track junky on weekends either.
So if this impact on flow occurs under 60 mph then the majority of the time he will not be acheiving the maximum air flow to the IC.

The ideal answer would be a well formed plug that blocks off the CAI flow yet permits good IC flow. Gather some good IAT data and then remove the plug and retest.

Until then we're all bench testing which although it's great fun doesn't solve much

Get those gauges mounted Dr PG

 

Water is heavier than air (well duh ) so the ideal thing is to leave a small bleed slot in your duct just in front of where it riases to go over the IC horn. A small radiused lip will force the water to follow it downward and out and yet still permit very good air flow. 1/8th" should be plenty big enough.
Exiting water or air will do nothing more than slightly cool the IC horn as it dups onto it yet will free you from havong to remember plugs or stick them in while it's pouring rain.

Just a thought Dr Phil. Now that you have your duct built you have a pretty ideal mold to lay fiberglass over. Better thermal properties than Al.

 

There's no reason he can't bore holes in NPT pipe plugs and mount the probes in the conventional location.

 

With DrPhil's scoop, his diverter is just channeling the air that would normally smack into the IC outlet horn. The air isn't being channeled directly at the IC in the first place(DFIC scoop), so how is it being taken away from there?

 

Two reasons:

1-diameter of new probe and bung's hole are very close...this would be hard to do without a CNC milling machining...
2-the probes of the VR temp gauge are only an inch long...too short to reach far enough into the existing bungs...

 

Gawd, I love this thread!

 

(I inserted the photo of the new V2 diverter)
With the DF scoop, or something similar, the entire scoop area is fed into the DFIC. The RHS air is directed into the opening in front of the IC. So, I am "taking air" that was otherwise going into the IC. The question, as Obehave has rightly raised, is 2-fold:
1. Is there sufficient air passing through the IC at highway speeds (40-60) with my scoop and splitter?
2. Is the benefit of colder air to the intake adding more than the lower airflow through the IC taking away? Here's where measurements will help, I hope.

 

Thanks for the idea for the water drain! Actually, I'm trying to figure out, with the help of Partsman, how to get a mould of the duct, in situ (since the bonnet is the 4th side) to get it moulded from fiber or heat resistant plastic.
I have insulated the Al to try to keep temps down. It doesn't appear to be all that hot when I stick my hand inside it after driving to work.
btw, you're right--I'm not a track addict, even though I could become one if I wasn't MWC (can't spell it out just in case...)

cheers,

 

The steel of the hood is hotter ( your silver car is way better than my IB ). A little insulation mat should do the trick.

Obes drain should work. Trust me, heavy rain is a problem & we had a bunch of it this year.

MWC never stoped me. I will admit I was way more interested in my son & his accomplishments on the track. The W part came to 1 race.... she liked all the hardware he brought home