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Old 08-21-2006, 12:53 PM
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DFIC diverter (alt.)

Having an M7 Ram Intake in carbon fiber, and a new DFIC (scoop in white gel coat), I wanted to keep my old scoop (to match those CF headlight rings!) and still get the maximum air into the DFIC. So here's what I came up with:


Sorry about the penmanship, but you get the idea. A perfect seal all the way round using the M7 foam on the bonnet to seal the top of the IC.
Here's what it looks like from the front:


My intention is not to make any claims this is *better* than Joel's asymetric scoop with the M7 diverter. You'd have to take lots of fancy airflow measurements to claim any differences I'd presume. There are differences in the shapes of the Ram and DFIC scoops beyond the asymetry: the hole is bigger on the Ram, but the DFIC scoop has a lower lip that turns down.
I just wanted to keep my CF scoop...
cheers,
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Old 08-21-2006, 01:00 PM
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Good job!

And thanks for posting....

Matt
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Old 08-21-2006, 01:06 PM
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Just make sure you hunt down any leaks and plug them. A good seal makes a big difference.

Nice scoop.
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Old 08-21-2006, 01:07 PM
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I agree. Very nice job!
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Old 08-21-2006, 01:10 PM
62Lincoln 62Lincoln is offline
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Change your screen name to Houdini, you've done a magical job. That's a great work of art, and really nice workmanship.

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Old 08-21-2006, 01:21 PM
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Thanks! This is also the first photo I've seen of the DFIC *not polished* here on NAM. It actually matches the IC horns quite well, and the "rough" finish allows the boots to get a really good grip. A friend up at MITM was having problems with the DFIC moving sideways and had to roughen up the polished horns a little to make the seal.

btw, this is DFIC #023. Where are all the others? (haha) --Gee maybe we could start the Official DFIC owners thread on the Mini Talk forum...or not.

back to work for me!
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Old 08-21-2006, 01:23 PM
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Oooh... I was planning on trying something like this this after I returned from vacation this weekend. Nice work.

I'm thinking of doing it with the Extreme Scoop though!
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Old 08-21-2006, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandini
Having an M7 Ram Intake in carbon fiber, and a new DFIC (scoop in white gel coat), I wanted to keep my old scoop (to match those CF headlight rings!) and still get the maximum air into the DFIC. So here's what I came up with:


Sorry about the penmanship, but you get the idea. A perfect seal all the way round using the M7 foam on the bonnet to seal the top of the IC.
Here's what it looks like from the front:


My intention is not to make any claims this is *better* than Joel's asymetric scoop with the M7 diverter. You'd have to take lots of fancy airflow measurements to claim any differences I'd presume. There are differences in the shapes of the Ram and DFIC scoops beyond the asymetry: the hole is bigger on the Ram, but the DFIC scoop has a lower lip that turns down.
I just wanted to keep my CF scoop...
cheers,
dr. phil,
Proves there is more then one way to skin a --ops-- make a scoop fit.
As a side thought; the lower edge of the CF scoop could be removed, use the DFIC scoop as reference, to enlarge the hole. This would allow the incoming air to flow to the bottom of the IC a little better. Might help. If you do this you might have to reseal it slightly.
If you want/need help with this PM me.
Joel
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Old 08-21-2006, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandini
Having an M7 Ram Intake in carbon fiber, and a new DFIC (scoop in white gel coat), I wanted to keep my old scoop (to match those CF headlight rings!) and still get the maximum air into the DFIC. So here's what I came up with:


Sorry about the penmanship, but you get the idea. A perfect seal all the way round using the M7 foam on the bonnet to seal the top of the IC.
Here's what it looks like from the front:


My intention is not to make any claims this is *better* than Joel's asymetric scoop with the M7 diverter. You'd have to take lots of fancy airflow measurements to claim any differences I'd presume. There are differences in the shapes of the Ram and DFIC scoops beyond the asymetry: the hole is bigger on the Ram, but the DFIC scoop has a lower lip that turns down.
I just wanted to keep my CF scoop...
cheers,
Nice job If I'd known you could do this, I'd kept my other Ram Intake...personally I prefer the wide open mouth look (no offense Joel)

There's just one small problem...the DFIC intake takes a dive after clearing the bonnet structure...this effectively pressurizes the incoming streaming and ducted down to face the full face of the core. The original Ram Intake is designed for the standard top/down ICs...This intake will miss half of the DFIC's core...
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSFITOY
...
There's just one small problem...the DFIC intake takes a dive after clearing the bonnet structure...this effectively pressurizes the incoming streaming and ducted down to face the full face of the core. The original Ram Intake is designed for the standard top/down ICs...This intake will miss half of the DFIC's core...
Yes, this is what I was referring to with the lower lip of the DFIC scoop. Joel's post offers one "fix" by cutting away the lower lip of the Ram scoop.
It's not so obvious from the photos, but my diverter actually angles up to mimic the "down turn" in the DFIC scoop, so that the air goes up and then down. Of course I can enlarge the opening to encourage this but essentially if the air turns down flowing through the DFIC scoop, it should turn down flowing through my scoop and diverter!
Or...I could install a splitter that directs the air down, running across the middle of the scoop. Could be a good idea!

btw, why does the M7 diverter not have seals against the bonnet underside to prevent ram air from escaping over the sides? Is the flow through the scoop so controlled that there is no leakage at the sides?
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Old 08-21-2006, 04:38 PM
cabmeister cabmeister is offline
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Super neat job .I too , want to keep my Extreme scoop And was going to try to fabricate something .You have , it seems aced it .Would you have any tips for a non metal working person ?.

If I could do it in wood I would be home free
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Old 08-21-2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandini
Yes, this is what I was referring to with the lower lip of the DFIC scoop. Joel's post offers one "fix" by cutting away the lower lip of the Ram scoop.
It's not so obvious from the photos, but my diverter actually angles up to mimic the "down turn" in the DFIC scoop, so that the air goes up and then down. Of course I can enlarge the opening to encourage this but essentially if the air turns down flowing through the DFIC scoop, it should turn down flowing through my scoop and diverter!
Or...I could install a splitter that directs the air down, running across the middle of the scoop. Could be a good idea!

btw, why does the M7 diverter not have seals against the bonnet underside to prevent ram air from escaping over the sides? Is the flow through the scoop so controlled that there is no leakage at the sides?
I would still suggest opening the scoop. In present configuration you may not receive full flow to the lower area of the IC. A diverter would push some air down but then it could starve the area immediately behind the diverter. Your upward ramp is a good solution and will work well/better if the scoop's lower edge is brought forward to the area I mentioned before. I would also suggest radiusing the edge down to help direct the air downward. You should realize adequate air flow using the Ram scoop and your diverter, but the asymmetrical scoop should show better air flow characteristics as the air flow isn't being bounced off the side that is now exposed. Just my opinion/theory.

To answer your question, some air may spill around the forward edge under high speed conditions as the optimum air flow through the IC is exceeded. But at that point you would be experiencing high pressure build up at the scoop anyway.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:04 PM
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Joel, I hear ya on the lower edge recommendation. I'm going to try some surgery on my Extreme Scoop, possibly this weekend. I just wish that I had an extra, non painted one to make a mistake on first though...

Phil, do you happen to have a higher resolution photo of the first shot provided in this thread? If so, and if you don't mind sharing it, kindly PM me. Thanks much.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyB
Joel, I hear ya on the lower edge recommendation. I'm going to try some surgery on my Extreme Scoop, possibly this weekend. I just wish that I had an extra, non painted one to make a mistake on first though...

Phil, do you happen to have a higher resolution photo of the first shot provided in this thread? If so, and if you don't mind sharing it, kindly PM me. Thanks much.
TonyB...do you have the Extreme or the Ram Intake? Big difference...
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyB
I just wish that I had an extra, non painted one to make a mistake on first though...
Measure twice(or fifty times) cut once.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:35 PM
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If I could get the DFIC in CF, I'd use it as I do like the deeper mouth over the wider mouth scoop. I also think that my diverter would still work with the asymetric scoop, especially as it controls any air escaping at the sides and under the DFIC. I'm going to get the asymetric scoop painted black, just so I can try both with the diverter for fitment issues.

Tony, I'll send you hi-res images tomorrow from work. It cannot be seen in the photos, but the diverter actually uses 3 of the old IC mounts--there's one behind the RHS that helps to control the pressure exerted by the bonnet on the seal.

cabmeister: I'm afraid you'll need to get some metal working skills, as it's a little complicated to fabricate. I, too, work mainly in wood, and wish there were more applications on the MINI for it! I was thinking of making a scoop out of wood that incorporated the diverter, but metal is easier to find a quick solution.

cheers,
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:42 PM
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Sid, I have the Extreme. After looking at it more closely, I'm not sure I'll need to do much... Curious to hear your input. PARTSMAN, let's hope I won't have to do much, but I agree, I'll measure as many times as I need to be certain. Heck, it's not like cutting a hole in the bonnet!

Phil, sending you my email address now... Thanks much.
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandini
If I could get the DFIC in CF, I'd use it as I do like the deeper mouth over the wider mouth scoop. I also think that my diverter would still work with the asymetric scoop, especially as it controls any air escaping at the sides and under the DFIC. I'm going to get the asymetric scoop painted black, just so I can try both with the diverter for fitment issues.


cheers,
dr. phil,

Keep us posted.
Will the deeper lip of the DFIC scoop interfer with your diverer?
One more suggestion, if I may, on the driver's side your diverter is concaved, I would suggest making it convexed. The air should flow better without bouncing a little.
By the way, nice workout.
Joel
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS
One more suggestion, if I may, on the driver's side your diverter is concaved, I would suggest making it convexed.
Joel
I'm not picking on you Joel, but do you have that reversed? Isn't it convexed now? Isn't concave to curve inward?
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:33 PM
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I think you are right PARTSMAN. Convex is bowed outward, at least from what I recall. Concave would be inward... If so, I think Joel does indeed meant concave so it craddles the air more...
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Old 08-22-2006, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PARTSMAN
I'm not picking on you Joel, but do you have that reversed? Isn't it convexed now? Isn't concave to curve inward?
Yup. Sorry. Mix up in my convoluted mind.
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Old 08-22-2006, 06:08 AM
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Joel: I thought about the convex v. concave side. I thought it might act more like a venturi being concave as it is, and I gave it a parabolic curve to encourage increased velocity along its surface. It is also angled down at the bottom so as to encourage the air to push down to the lower parts of the IC. (and you thought I was an economist, not an engineer!) Of course, I'm not doing any modelling or taking flow measurements here, so I'm theorizing and guessing all at once.
I tried the asymetric scoop this morning and it fits to the diverter perfectly! The downturned bottom lip matches the angled diverter (what a coincidence). I also looked at cutting the CF scoop but - as most of you know - it's only a CF layer over regular plastic moulding material, so I'm worried about messing it up. Related--since the scoop mouth is about 3" from the IC, maybe a small splitter might direct air and not cause too much of a dead spot by the time the air combines again?

I'm trying to get it all done for MTTS-Albuquerque so that everyone can see it at the race track event on Thursday.

see you there!
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Old 08-22-2006, 07:35 AM
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dr. phil,
Interesting idea - venturi. Do venturis work well under pressure? I've always associate them with vacumn as in carberators.
Great coincidence or good planning? Call it good planning on your part, that the lip and your diverter align. Glad to hear you don't have to cut up the scoop to fit it to your diverter.
Try your splitter out and let us know how it works (and photos please) Are you planning to place the splitter on your AL2 diverter or to the scoop? I forgot how far away the DFIC is from the scoop. 3 in. should be enough space for the air to come back around the backside of your splitter.
As I also said all this is theory for me also. I have some wind tunnel experience to draw from, but I don't have one at my disposal to test out non company ideas.
I wished I had my DFIC to play with too.
JS
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Old 08-22-2006, 09:09 AM
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Ok...time for me to jump in...

Soon after my DFIC was installed back in May, I approached Joel about taking on a "special" project for me...I wanted to take the original Ram Intake and modify it to extend down beyond the hood/metal obstructions in order to achieve maximum frontal exposure to the air stream for the DFIC. I was trying to get a FG version from Peter and make this modification but he has been very busy and the project was put on the back burner.

I am still very interested in this experiment and, as many of you have already conjectured, this could possibly provide a significant aerodynamic improvement for the already very efficient DFIC...We'll try and put this project back on line...in the meantime, here's a quick sketch of my original concept...

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Old 08-22-2006, 10:09 AM
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This scoop would fit my diverter *perfectly*. There's quite a lot of metal around the scoop that could be removed without compromising the bonnet. We might have to modify the plastic shroud above the radiator and the associated rubber gasket, but that's easy (although it might interfere with the scoop for the AGS users).
Send me a beta...

Joel: (warning-- a little knowledge is dangerous, but here goes) I checked out Wikipedia on venturis and they cause low pressure at the constriction, which would be the IC face in this case, but there's already high pressure there as the air is being forced into the IC by the scoop, so there's some opposing forces, but I'd guess the high pressure from the Ram scoop wins out. There might be some turbulence at the right side of the curved surface but again this might just cause a minor eddy at the right side. The alternative of a convex surface worries me, since if it really does channel the air flow it would produce a flow at 90deg to the one coming directly at the IC face, causing some turbulence at the confluence of the two streams. My apologies to the physicists in the audience...

btw, I noticed that all the M7 scoops have a moulded-in bulge at the top center that interferes with a piece of metal on the bonnet, causing a high spot and places considerable tension on the two top mounting bolts. If you grind/sand it down the scoops fit much better!

cheers,
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