Drivetrain oil catch cans
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 2
From: Oregon, USA
1. Have you looked at my gallery on my OCC install? You should.
2. Alta doesn't recommend you install to the hose. It says to install on the valve cover barbs on both ends.
3. Did you read the quote from your Wiki site I posted? Maybe you should read the whole entry.
4. Again I will ask why you think it is such a bad idea to cap off the hard gray line when you have another outlet for the vapors on the drivers side?
5. How you can accuse me of "you couldn't even go out to your car and get your hands dirty to experience first hand what that line was doing...you just sat smugly behind your 'puter typing away." when I answered your question of what happens at the vent valve. I am fully aware of the mechanics of the engine. I don't have to go out at your command to verify what I already know.
So I ask again........what is so bad about plugging off the hard gray line when you have another line connected to the valve cover that is capable of collecting any and all vapors?
2. Alta doesn't recommend you install to the hose. It says to install on the valve cover barbs on both ends.
3. Did you read the quote from your Wiki site I posted? Maybe you should read the whole entry.
4. Again I will ask why you think it is such a bad idea to cap off the hard gray line when you have another outlet for the vapors on the drivers side?
5. How you can accuse me of "you couldn't even go out to your car and get your hands dirty to experience first hand what that line was doing...you just sat smugly behind your 'puter typing away." when I answered your question of what happens at the vent valve. I am fully aware of the mechanics of the engine. I don't have to go out at your command to verify what I already know.
So I ask again........what is so bad about plugging off the hard gray line when you have another line connected to the valve cover that is capable of collecting any and all vapors?
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by pure&simple
I think the post was pretty clear in explaining my theory (that is all it is - a theory) of what was happening... I'd rather not debate semantics, so rather than offer just a definition, let me be a little more descriptive. Feel free to respond with more questions if you have them.
All around us there are tiny little molecules of air stacked on top of each other. These air molecules have mass. Because they have mass, when enough of these air molecules are moving fast enough in the same direction, they exert force on the nearby objects with which they collide. For example, hurricanes blow down trees, tornados pick up cars, etc. That's point #1 - air has mass and moving air affects nearby objects.
In nature we see air movement created at least in part by temperature differentials between one part of the country and another. Colder air is more dense, warmer air is less dense. Air has mass, and there are many vertical miles of these air molecules piled up on top of each other, which compacts the air molecules at the bottom with a force of approx 14.7 psi (atmospheric pressure). Because it is pressurized, air is always seeking to evenly distribute itself, so it moves toward areas of low pressure. That's point #2 - air is always (sometimes violently) seeking to maintain uniform pressure (i.e. avoid vacuum).
So how do we get air to move? Well, we can heat or cool it to make it move on its own. Or we can simply push it out of the way with fan blades of some sort. Each revolution of a jet engine pushes many air molecules from its inlet to its outlet. So do the rest of the neighboring air molecules in front of the engine just sit there allowing a void (vacuum) to form? Of course not. As some air molecules are being forced through the jet engine, others are immediately (and violently) rushing to take their place. This movement of air can be casually referred to as suction, hence my comment about air being "sucked" into the engine. However, air movement does not imply that a vacuum exists. That's point #3.
So what is a vacuum? As was previously quoted from dictionary.com: "A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure." If you were to measure the pressure in front of the engine, I believe it would be at or very near atmospheric. In order to drop inlet pressure below atmospheric, the jet engine would need to be moving air more rapidly than the neighboring air molecules could move to fill the void created. My contention is that this is extremely difficult unless you have something restrictive attached to the inlet in order to hold the air back, like an intake system with a throttle body in it. That's point #4 - its extremely difficult to create measurable vacuum in the open atmosphere.
Thoughts?
All around us there are tiny little molecules of air stacked on top of each other. These air molecules have mass. Because they have mass, when enough of these air molecules are moving fast enough in the same direction, they exert force on the nearby objects with which they collide. For example, hurricanes blow down trees, tornados pick up cars, etc. That's point #1 - air has mass and moving air affects nearby objects.
In nature we see air movement created at least in part by temperature differentials between one part of the country and another. Colder air is more dense, warmer air is less dense. Air has mass, and there are many vertical miles of these air molecules piled up on top of each other, which compacts the air molecules at the bottom with a force of approx 14.7 psi (atmospheric pressure). Because it is pressurized, air is always seeking to evenly distribute itself, so it moves toward areas of low pressure. That's point #2 - air is always (sometimes violently) seeking to maintain uniform pressure (i.e. avoid vacuum).
So how do we get air to move? Well, we can heat or cool it to make it move on its own. Or we can simply push it out of the way with fan blades of some sort. Each revolution of a jet engine pushes many air molecules from its inlet to its outlet. So do the rest of the neighboring air molecules in front of the engine just sit there allowing a void (vacuum) to form? Of course not. As some air molecules are being forced through the jet engine, others are immediately (and violently) rushing to take their place. This movement of air can be casually referred to as suction, hence my comment about air being "sucked" into the engine. However, air movement does not imply that a vacuum exists. That's point #3.
So what is a vacuum? As was previously quoted from dictionary.com: "A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure." If you were to measure the pressure in front of the engine, I believe it would be at or very near atmospheric. In order to drop inlet pressure below atmospheric, the jet engine would need to be moving air more rapidly than the neighboring air molecules could move to fill the void created. My contention is that this is extremely difficult unless you have something restrictive attached to the inlet in order to hold the air back, like an intake system with a throttle body in it. That's point #4 - its extremely difficult to create measurable vacuum in the open atmosphere.
Thoughts?
Well put though.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 784
Likes: 3
From: SE FL (Hell Disguised as Paradise)
I know this is not the Mini's intake but since we are talking about intakes and what they do....this is a picture of my diesel's CAI
This is the close-up of the filter/suction guage.
Again....I know this is not the Mini...but still on topic with the sub-topic.
This is the close-up of the filter/suction guage.
Again....I know this is not the Mini...but still on topic with the sub-topic.
Banned
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by pure&simple
I think the post was pretty clear in explaining my theory (that is all it is - a theory) of what was happening... I'd rather not debate semantics, so rather than offer just a definition, let me be a little more descriptive. Feel free to respond with more questions if you have them.
All around us there are tiny little molecules of air stacked on top of each other. These air molecules have mass. Because they have mass, when enough of these air molecules are moving fast enough in the same direction, they exert force on the nearby objects with which they collide. For example, hurricanes blow down trees, tornados pick up cars, etc. That's point #1 - air has mass and moving air affects nearby objects.
In nature we see air movement created at least in part by temperature differentials between one part of the country and another. Colder air is more dense, warmer air is less dense. Air has mass, and there are many vertical miles of these air molecules piled up on top of each other, which compacts the air molecules at the bottom with a force of approx 14.7 psi (atmospheric pressure). Because it is pressurized, air is always seeking to evenly distribute itself, so it moves toward areas of low pressure. That's point #2 - air is always (sometimes violently) seeking to maintain uniform pressure (i.e. avoid vacuum).
So how do we get air to move? Well, we can heat or cool it to make it move on its own. Or we can simply push it out of the way with fan blades of some sort. Each revolution of a jet engine pushes many air molecules from its inlet to its outlet. So do the rest of the neighboring air molecules in front of the engine just sit there allowing a void (vacuum) to form? Of course not. As some air molecules are being forced through the jet engine, others are immediately (and violently) rushing to take their place. This movement of air can be casually referred to as suction, hence my comment about air being "sucked" into the engine. However, air movement does not imply that a vacuum exists. That's point #3.
So what is a vacuum? As was previously quoted from dictionary.com: "A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure." If you were to measure the pressure in front of the engine, I believe it would be at or very near atmospheric. In order to drop inlet pressure below atmospheric, the jet engine would need to be moving air more rapidly than the neighboring air molecules could move to fill the void created. My contention is that this is extremely difficult unless you have something restrictive attached to the inlet in order to hold the air back, like an intake system with a throttle body in it. That's point #4 - its extremely difficult to create measurable vacuum in the open atmosphere.
Thoughts?
All around us there are tiny little molecules of air stacked on top of each other. These air molecules have mass. Because they have mass, when enough of these air molecules are moving fast enough in the same direction, they exert force on the nearby objects with which they collide. For example, hurricanes blow down trees, tornados pick up cars, etc. That's point #1 - air has mass and moving air affects nearby objects.
In nature we see air movement created at least in part by temperature differentials between one part of the country and another. Colder air is more dense, warmer air is less dense. Air has mass, and there are many vertical miles of these air molecules piled up on top of each other, which compacts the air molecules at the bottom with a force of approx 14.7 psi (atmospheric pressure). Because it is pressurized, air is always seeking to evenly distribute itself, so it moves toward areas of low pressure. That's point #2 - air is always (sometimes violently) seeking to maintain uniform pressure (i.e. avoid vacuum).
So how do we get air to move? Well, we can heat or cool it to make it move on its own. Or we can simply push it out of the way with fan blades of some sort. Each revolution of a jet engine pushes many air molecules from its inlet to its outlet. So do the rest of the neighboring air molecules in front of the engine just sit there allowing a void (vacuum) to form? Of course not. As some air molecules are being forced through the jet engine, others are immediately (and violently) rushing to take their place. This movement of air can be casually referred to as suction, hence my comment about air being "sucked" into the engine. However, air movement does not imply that a vacuum exists. That's point #3.
So what is a vacuum? As was previously quoted from dictionary.com: "A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure." If you were to measure the pressure in front of the engine, I believe it would be at or very near atmospheric. In order to drop inlet pressure below atmospheric, the jet engine would need to be moving air more rapidly than the neighboring air molecules could move to fill the void created. My contention is that this is extremely difficult unless you have something restrictive attached to the inlet in order to hold the air back, like an intake system with a throttle body in it. That's point #4 - its extremely difficult to create measurable vacuum in the open atmosphere.
Thoughts?
Soooo, bottom line: the supercharger creates a vacuum (area of below-atmospheric pressure) at the farthest point on its inlet side (nearest the atmosphere). This will exist as long as the air is moving into the supercharger. If you remove the entire inlet duct, the vacuum will exist at the entry into the supercharger.
3rd Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
From: Wilmington, DE
Originally Posted by DialM
If there was no pressure differential, there would be no movement of air into the supercharger.
Originally Posted by DialM
The supercharger removes air from the inlet. Now that I think of it, the lowest pressure is at the atmospheric inlet (where the air accelerates), since dynamic pressure is exerted downstream, you get a static pressure drop upstream (I am a little rusty here, so correct me if I am wrong). As the air is accelerated, static pressure drops. Here I will really stretch my recall: you should still have a lower (than atmospheric) static pressure within the moving column within the inlet tube, since total pressure equals static pressure plus dynamic pressure (and nature likes balance, so total pressure should equal atmospheric).
Originally Posted by DialM
Soooo, bottom line: the supercharger creates a vacuum (area of below-atmospheric pressure) at the farthest point on its inlet side (nearest the atmosphere). This will exist as long as the air is moving into the supercharger. If you remove the entire inlet duct, the vacuum will exist at the entry into the supercharger.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 784
Likes: 3
From: SE FL (Hell Disguised as Paradise)
Originally Posted by pure&simple
Mods, would someone please split this physics of vacuum stuff into a separate thread so the OCC discussion can continue uninterrupted?
DialM you are correct......it is call Bernourli's principle, as velocity increases over a surface preseure decreases.
It is also the same concept of the venturi. As pressure decreases tempeture also decreases.
Static v. Dynamic
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Mr. Pep'r
That would probably be a good idea.
DialM you are correct......it is call Bernourli's principle, as velocity increases over a surface pressure decreases.
It is also the same concept of the venturi. As pressure decreases temperature also decreases.
Static v. Dynamic
DialM you are correct......it is call Bernourli's principle, as velocity increases over a surface pressure decreases.
It is also the same concept of the venturi. As pressure decreases temperature also decreases.
Static v. Dynamic
And it would be air over a curved surface. A flat surface would demontrate no pressure differential between upper and lower surfaces.
But hey, what do I know.
Helps a ton with carburetors though. And those in the air wingy things
"Static v. Dynamic
" Pressure and vacuum can both exist in dynamic or static states.Now here's a good one to just blur everything.
Let's say you have a bathysphere. Internally it's at 1, maybe a bit more, atmospheres.
You descend 35,000 feet. At 1,100 atmospheres are the people in a vacuum because of the comprative differences or not? thoughts?
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
Arly's original post
Originally Posted by stevecars60
Anybody have an SES after an Alta can install? That can not be canceled after many re-sets?
The install is correct.
The install is correct.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
Originally Posted by ScottinBend
Never had an SES code thrown and only have one can installed. See my gallery for a pic on my install.
Dom, no reply to my questions?
Dom, no reply to my questions?
A frend came by with his 02 w/ Alta can & SES. The can is a proper install.
No holes, cracks, or pinched lines, just does not make sence. Put the stock setup back & no SES. I can't find any sensor that could be responsible for the SES ( don't have a code reader ).
I have an Alta can on my car without issue. We installed the 2 can setup with my can, on the 02, & no SES. Go figure.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Originally Posted by obehave
Fk'n brilliant.
Thank God I'm not the "loser" here.
Thank God I'm not the "loser" here.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Revolver
Aha...ahahahahahaha... Hey obehave, maybe I'm not getting your humor but is that what you would refer to as irony? Like when someone is being funny because they are, like, being ironic? Because if that's your joke then dude its funny!!! Funniest. You win, you're the funniest guy in this thread !!!!!!!
You have the right idea.
Thank you. I also appreciate the irony of your post and it's "free form" spelling.
Banned
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by pure&simple
Certainly, but because you have so many very small, pressurized air molecules all around, my theory is that this pressure differential is being resolved so rapidly as to be unmeasurable. Are you contending that the supercharger is moving the air fast enough to "stretch" it or reduce its density in the immediate vicinity of the inlet because the surrounding air molecules cannot fill the void fast enough to maintain uniform density / atmospheric pressure?
Sounds interesting, but I'm having trouble following. Could you bring it down a level and define your terms? Specifically, how does dynamic pressure factor into it? If you're saying that total pressure = atmospheric, perhaps we're agreeing?
If there was a pressure sensor just before the supercharger, would it register vacuum (i.e. below atmospheric)? That's what I'm not ready to buy into just yet... Take an NA engine instead of a supercharger for example (since they're both just air pumps). Why do we measure essentially atmospheric pressure in the intake manifold at WOT? If what you say is true, shouldn't the engine be creating a measurable vacuum in the intake manifold, especially at WOT? Or perhaps we need to get into dynamic vs. static pressure to explain this? I'm keeping an open mind...
Sounds interesting, but I'm having trouble following. Could you bring it down a level and define your terms? Specifically, how does dynamic pressure factor into it? If you're saying that total pressure = atmospheric, perhaps we're agreeing?
If there was a pressure sensor just before the supercharger, would it register vacuum (i.e. below atmospheric)? That's what I'm not ready to buy into just yet... Take an NA engine instead of a supercharger for example (since they're both just air pumps). Why do we measure essentially atmospheric pressure in the intake manifold at WOT? If what you say is true, shouldn't the engine be creating a measurable vacuum in the intake manifold, especially at WOT? Or perhaps we need to get into dynamic vs. static pressure to explain this? I'm keeping an open mind...
Forget the static vs. dynamic pressure issue, as I can't recall enough to argue the point with certainty (that is why I wrote, "correct me if I am wrong").
I think that just before the supercharger, the air is less dense than atmospheric, but will be affected by stacking that may occur due to a roots supercharger taking somewhat discreet gulps, and other obstruction-related slowing. The air travelling down the inlet duct will be less dense than atmospheric. Pretend you have a line of MINIs doing a rolling start as they cross a starting line. This line of cars travels at five miles per hour until they cross the starting line, then, upon crossing the line each car accelerates to some higher speed. The line of MINIs began with a "density" of ten MINIs per 100 feet travelling at 5 MPH and ends up with a "density" of one MINI per 500 feet travelling at 50 MPH (numbers made up, not calculated, but you get the drift).
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Revolver
Well since you've aired your inner feelings I'm afraid I have to telll you I don't go that way. Maybe maybe somebody that finds that amusing could keep you warm at night.
<-- Is that a thumb?
