...and Randy's position is validated by the fact that the JCW kit does nothing to enhance cooling as part of the upgrade.

With all of the reliability testing mandated by BMW for JCW, I think we're safe in assuming that it can accommodate (was designed from the start to accommodate) the extra power/heat.

Jeff (and of course if I have my head up my **** feel free to point this out.)

 

i just talked to a service guy at my dealer who said the JCW kit should be:
1) out next month
2) in the $5k range
3) increase output all the way up to 210HP

he also said he is working on getting them to break it into stages so you can do the exhaust first and then later do other parts of it but he's not sure how much success he'll have.

 

Hey Randy,

Thanks for answering my question. I have a somewhat unrelated follow-up question. Do you think that if I switch my S-grill to the chrome grill of the base Cooper that it will affect air intake or engine cooling because there are more louvers on the grill?

Thanks in advance.

 

Joedude99,

I asked this question awhile back, and the general concensus was that the additional slat would not make very much difference. However, there is a better solution available. You can order a chrome S grill. They became an option in the UK this month, so it will be available as a part.

I was going to do a chromed dark silver MCS but have since changed to Chili Red and will keep the exisisting grill, but I did ask MINIUSA about the chrome S grill. There are still no plans to make it an option in the USA at this time, but they confirmed the part could be ordered and installed.

Hope that helps,
JS

 

John (JLM) commented on my earlier posting, noting

>>keep in mind that the torque and hp figures are peak values and that they are not at the same rpm. Hp typically peaks greater than 6800 rpm, while torque peaks at 4500. It would not be unusual for the relationship of the peak values to differ after a mod.
>>

Of course he is 100% correct. I spoke slightly in haste when I said "ONLY way" -- my statement should have sed something like ... the ONLY WAYS to increase HP is to increase RPM and/or push the torque peak to higher RPM ... .

My intent was to remind people that at any given RPM, HP & tourque are intimately related. I had the impression that some people had arrived at the notion that they were different beasties. Again my message is that

Horsepower (at any given RPM) = RPM * Torque (at that same RPM) * K

where K is a constant suitable for the particular units you chose to use.

 

>> Horsepower (at any given RPM) = RPM * Torque (at that same RPM) * K
>>where K is a constant suitable for the particular units you chose to use.

So are you saying to have an HP gain is also necessary to have a torque gain?

 

Do you think that if I switch my S-grill to the chrome grill of the base Cooper that it will affect air intake or engine cooling because there are more louvers on the grill?
>>

I've also heard that adding the chrome grill won't add Horsepower but it might add 5-10 lbs of torque??? WHat do ya think????

 

>>So are you saying to have an HP gain is also necessary to have a torque gain?

Let's just say that if torque were a place I'd turn toward it five times a day and pray

 

dominicminicoopers,

Stepping in here, my apoligies to W3IWI. A HP gain can be had without a torque gain simply by raising the rpm. Look at the equation again:

HP = Torque x RPM x K (constant)

If the torque is relatively flat (constant) from the stock rev-limit to the raised rev limit, then the HP will be increased simply by raising the rev limit; with no improvement in torque.

I think the confusion here results from the fact that HP and Torque are related by definition (the equation above), but there's a third variable, RPM. So MAX HP and MAX Torque cannot be correlated since they occur at significantly different RPMs. Which further means that comparisons like MAX Torque = 95% of MAX HP for a stock MCS versus MAX Torque = 88% of MAX HP for a JCW MCS are meaningless. The JCW still has more torque, more HP, and a higher redline than a stock MCS.

Remember, from basic physics, torque is the force that accelerates a car. HP is just a mathematical creation to quantify the power being produced during that acceleration. The fastest way to accelerate a car would be to have a perfectly efficient CVT that would hold the engine RPM at exactly the peak torque RPM. Unfortunately such a CVT doesn't exist (they're relatively inefficient). But the MCS has six forward gears to allow you to keep the RPMs as close to the optimum point as possible.

Cheers,

James

 

>> Which further means that comparisons like MAX Torque = 95% of MAX HP for a stock MCS versus MAX Torque = 88% of MAX HP for a JCW MCS are meaningless. The JCW still has more torque, more HP, and a higher redline than a stock MCS.
>>

Yes. But I was comparing a JCW S with a stock S with a pulley and intake. My point was the JCW only had 2 more pounds of torque meaning most of the extra HP the JCW enjoys is simply from a higher redline. That's HP that I personally don't need. I just want the torque. That's why I'm getting the pulley for a couple hundred bucks instead of the JCW kit for 5 or 6 thousand.

 

Mister_S kindly said
>>Stepping in here, my apoligies to W3IWI.

James -- No apologies needed -- glad to say that we are in VIOLENT AGREEMENT!

One small point -- you said
>>Remember, from basic physics, torque is the force that accelerates a car.
>>HP is just a mathematical creation to quantify the power being produced
>>during that acceleration.

Yes, torque is what gets you to speed faster. HP is a measure of how much work the car can do. But since the system has losses from rubber rolling on the ground, friction with the air, friction in the drivetrain, the alternator charging the battery to play the stereo, etc you need power to make the heat you throw away. When Randy evaluates a particular mod, he uses a dyno that converts wheel rotations into heat by measuring how much heat is created.

The word "horsepower" historically relates to a comparison of an engine with how many horses (which convert grain, not gasoline, into motion and heat) it takes to pull the load, and that specific relation is contrived. In real terms, One HP is defined as 746 watts. A good definition of the HP is seen on HowThingsWork where we see that
.

The good folks HowThingsWork have a great discussion of the physics points I have been trying to make where they discuss how a dynamometer is used, the relatin between torque, HP and RPM. I Highly yecommend anyone interested in this to to read HowThingsWork .

In an earlier post, I said that FtLb torque and HP were numerically equal at "about 5200 RPM". I see from HowThingsWork that the "about" constant is really 5252.

Thanks for listening to the long diatribe -- Tom

 

JCW? I didn't know J.C. Whitney made parts for our cars.... Lo Ri Da.

 

greatgo:

consider these two situations, both are typical:

Engine one puts out 152 lb-ft at 4200, but at 6200,only 140.
Engine two puts out 148 lb-ft at 4200, and 144 at 6200.

which would you rather have? I realize the differences are slight, but illustrate the point

 

Thanks Randy i guess i did misunderstand you. After reading about the JCW kit that had the pulley i thought it might be okay. Thanks for clearing that up. Hey is there a big difference in aftermarket pulleys or are they all pretty much the same? Anyone can answer thanks

 

Thank you W3IWI and Mister_S for your excellent points and explainations! So it looks like 5252 is a magical number. I wonder if mathematically it has something to do with Pi, since we're comparing a linear movement (hp) to a rotating force (torque)??

 

$6K for the JCW....hmmmmm..wonder how much the cooper family is getting and how much the dealer is getting...sure JC would get a laugh out of those economics, laugh!

 

Personally I think the price is smart. Fast and the Furious brought engine tuning into the spotlight, and tons of people are juming on the bandwagon, but at the same time most people are afraid to void their warranty. I think people will pay a lot to keep that warranty, even if it winds up being more than they would spend on service and repair.

 

Another fact to keep in mind with the JCW conversion is that it will have a positive effect on resale value (like the M series of BMW). if you put a pulley on odds are you will not get any additional value out of it when you go to sell the car.

Dealer installed options add to the value of the car, after market options are not going to show up on the resale value, unless you find someone who wants the same parts you have, this means a private sale, not a trade in.

Just my $0.02 worth

 

I hardly ever write in to any forums, but I just can't help myself anymore. Can we all please just settle down a little bit about this JCW kit untill all of the facts are in. Right now prices are all over the place. Autoweek says $4500 installed. I just recieved the latest edition of Automobile magazine which says the price should be somewhere between $2000-$3000. The strong internet rumors are $5000 with install, or without depending on who you talk to. So it is clear that nobody knows the price, end point. Let's please chill out now until MINI USA releases pricing information. I log on everyday to search the internet to find a price on this kit and I read 100 new posts daily from people discussing whether or not it is of good value when first of all they don't know how much it costs, and secondly they don't know what you get or what the car is capable of. Is not the simple definition of value "how much you get for the money?" Everybody take a deep breath and relax. On http://www.johncooper.co.uk, the official WORKS website it says that the kit is for sale internationally starting April 2nd at all MINI dealerships. Even if this date is not correct, it means that we will all have some FACTS to work with pretty soon here. When we know how much it costs and what the car does, then let's start talking about whether it is worth it.

Those were my 2 cents now let me throw down a third penny:
BMW dealers have made heavy implications that the JCW kit is underated for power, and I, for one, believe them. Just look at the dyno graph on JCW's website, totally computer adjusted (but no way to prove that). Every tuner out there makes a basic intake filter, pulley, ECU, + exhaust and gets between 200 and 215HP. JCW, has not only a smaller pulley, but ceramic coated supercharger blades to keep temps down reliably and more boost, a reworked cylinder head with what is implied to be a different profile camshaft, new spark plugs, all new oe quality gaskets, and the usual exhaust and ECU programming the other companies use. I would guess that means more power than other kits. But lets be conservative and say the kit really makes 210-215 ponies. Do you think BMW is going to put a MINI with 215HP in the same showroom as a 225HP Z4 costing $20,000 more? Sure you could have a measly 215HP economy car, or this fabulously overpowered 225HP sports car. They would not shoot themselves in the foot like that. Let's all hold our colective breaths, and tongues, for the kit to come out. That should be any day now. So be patient. Then we can all erupt into cheers or jeers depending on what it looks like. I am just tired of reading everybody complain about absolutely nothing when I am a man of limited time and want to spend a little time researching the internet and end up reading 3 hours of "must read" threads which are ill informed banter over nothing. So I thought I should write my own. Thank you for reading, and happy motoring to all.

This will be my last post I guess, unless, another vein bursts in my forehead from reading nonsense claimed as news.

Cheerio

 

Every tuner out there makes a basic intake filter, pulley, ECU, + exhaust and gets between 200 and 215HP. JCW, has not only a smaller pulley, but ceramic coated supercharger blades to keep temps down reliably and more boost, a reworked cylinder head with what is implied to be a different profile camshaft, new spark plugs, all new oe quality gaskets, and the usual exhaust and ECU programming the other companies use. I would guess that means more power than other kits. But lets be conservative and say the kit really makes 210-215 ponies. >>>>>>>>


Where did you get THIS information? I believe they say teflon coated supercharger blades (the S already has a coating BTW) and didn't see any evidence of a different camshaft, nor have I seen ANY info on new spark plugs and gaskets. Even JCW's site and press releases don't mention that! As a matter of fact, one of their press releases shows all of the new parts. From what I've seen, it's just the pulley, ECU, polished head and exhaust. If you want to wait until "official" info on pricing before commenting than maybe you should also wait for "official" info on what the new kit consists of.

 

"From what I've seen, it's just the pulley, ECU, polished head and exhaust. If you want to wait until "official" info on pricing before commenting than maybe you should also wait for "official" info on what the new kit consists of."

Hey, hey! Let's not get personal about this. I love you greatgro, can't you see that? First off, that totally prooves my point. There aren't enough facts for any of us to even have this discussion. Secondly, the information on JCW's website clearly shows new NGK spark plugs (download the free brochure and it shows the spark plugs too), the picture of the "complete" kit you refer to, which is now my computer screen background shows the full exhaust, the badges, the supercharger (not just a pulley as you say), the cylinder head, and the head GASKET, and what looks to be the intake manifold gasket, allong with a belt, engine plate and exhaust clamp. It doesn't show the intercooler cover, but we know that is in the kit from other pictures and literature. Here is that picture, which is larger than the one on the JCW site http://www.mini2.com/images/jcws/kit.jpg . The ceramic rotors idea comes from various magazines and internet rumors (see rest of thread) and the AUTOWEEK magazine and my dealer made mention of the camshaft having a different profile. So you are right, those are just rumors. I don't want to get into an argument here, there are too few facts to work with which was my original point. Let's just drop it and wait and see because I know we are all excited to get some facts about true performance and how much it will truly cost. Still got nothin but love for you though. We all got MINI's, we are all good people.

 

ceberlik - I didn't mean to sound like a jerk if I did. You're right - it's all speculation right now. And that picture is new to me....That might change things...but a new supercharger? I doubt it otherwise it would have a lot more torque than I do and apparently it doesn't! But hey...who knows. I guess more official data will be out in a few weeks at the NYC auto show.

 

>>The JCW MINI only gains 22lbs of torque at the crank. Anyone else surprised by this? They use the same 15% pulley that everyone is talking about. Which means that the pulley is responsible for up to 86% of the torque gain in the JCW!!!


Not surprised at all. The supercharger is the main thing responsible for the extra torque of the S anyways. Free flowing exhausts can actually reduce torque, expecially low down, and even the best designs rarely add more than a few %. Polished heads and other mods that are done to the JCW also affect the torque very little.