Hello everyone. I'm thinking about doing the pulley and CAI for my first mods at the dragon. I've heard new spark plugs help for some reason, but I don't understand why. Keep in mind, I'm no mechanic. lol So maybe one of you could explain why bigger spark plugs or whatever helps the life of the engine for a new pulley. Or was it larger injectors someone recommended? :impatient :impatient

And the stock belt works fine, doesn't it?

Why all this talk of ECU remaps? Doesn't the current ECU manage the fuel air mixture to be optimal anyway? :impatient :impatient

If you could only get 2-4 mods, EVER, what would the most important complimenting ones be?

Now please excuse me as I spin around in my chair to release my mechanical confusions!

Jonathan

 

As you stuff more air into the cylider (With the pully) you will make more heat in there when it burns. So the cooler plugs will help get that heat out. Also the ECU will retard timing if it detects the onset of knock, and this will reduce power and efficiency. Cooler plugs can help here too!

As you really spin up the SC, you can run out of fuel, and then injectors can be helpful. But don't worry, untill your at 19% or more.

The stock ECU map is optimal, as in optimal compramise. There's power to be had, and there's midrange power to be had, which makes a lot of difference in day to day driving.

Now, I'm a big fan of balance. So for the basic mod list..

Help the brakes. (This can be better pads, fluid and bushings or you can spend a lot here. If you only do street driving, you don't need to spend much).
Help the handling. (rear bar is good, if you lower, get some adjustable rear control arms. I had excellent benefit from front camber plates. If none of this sound like english, just go with the rear bar!)
Then get a pully. (with the plugs. CAI is nice, and the one-ball mod is nice for helping the exhaust, but doesn't do much to the sound, the ECU work would fall in here after the CAI, Pully and maybe some exhaust work).

Good luck!

Matt

 

Thanks! What's your opinion on those oil catch cans? Do they really increase the life of the engine and increase HP due to less oily insides? I've also heard they can blow the engine up if the hoses get cramped.

 

I did some tests, and they help a little bit with IC thermal efficiency. If you get one, don't spend much money. Someone posted a <$20 version made out of something for a lawn mower. There have been some posts of crimped hoses resulting in blown seals, so you have to be carefull with the hose routing.

Matt

 

If I wait a year to put a catch can on, will it still be worth it? Or will everything be gunked up by then? lol Or does the catch can slowly remove previous build up too?

Thanks again,
Jonathan

 

and it's easy to take on and off. But I don't think it really cleans itself that fast. Oil films like to stay there.

Matt

 

A couple of additions to Dr. Obnxs' worthy comments:

In datalogging dyno runs with pulleyed cars, we always see some detonation, whether it be 13.8, 15 or 19% reduction. The timing is very quick to be pulled from the offending cylinder, so you'll see runs with timing all over the place. This sporatic detonation is a fact of life with pulleyed MINIs whether they have stock plugs or superduper cryo freezout plugs. There is no difference in the detonation activity between the OEM NGK's and plugs like the Denso Iridium. As you might expect, there is no difference in power output between the two, either (or any ignition product that I am aware of). This is based upon back-to-back dyno runs, same car, same day, change-them-on-the-dyno tests.

Common sense would suggest that we use the cold plugs because they are less [SIZE=2]susceptible [/SIZE]to failure due to detonation. I must buck common sense on this matter. I perfer to have the stockers, that are more susceptible to failure in there as the 'canary in the coal mine': If the detonation is persisting for whatever reason, I would rather have my $5 plug fail than say a piston ring. The car starts to misfire, goes to limp mode, and you pull over and fix whatever is wrong. With heavy duty plugs, if you should get a bad tank of gas, a bad knock sensor, and find yourself race with a pesky WRX, you'll be buying engine internals.

 

one-ball mod?

 

that's a good point...you don't hear that point of view too often around here. but it does make a lot of sense....

 

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...highlight=ball

 

When I got my pulley from WMS, Randy encouraged me not to buy cold plugs--effectively keeping money in my pocket and out of his. The Helix post is refreshing--a sensible post based on empirical data that offers an upside to stock plugs. Of all the mods I've done on my car, Id say the least effective (ie no effect) has been a new (red!) coil and Nology wires. In retrospect I'd have spent those dollars better...

cheers, phil

 

THANK YOU! I'm worshipping you right now, lol, really! That's exactly an answer I was looking for. Something I could understand, and made sense for the common spirited driver. I'm not looking to lower my MINI to scrap the ground. I'm not looking for ways to shoot nitrous into the engine. I'm just looking for ways that make spirited driving more fun. I may never race my MINI.

Sometimes you ask around here, and you get the latest greatest performance concepts. That's nice and all, but it sounds like a pulley and CAI alone would be just fine (and healthy!!) for the car. Maybe some other mods down the road, like the rear sway bar, etc. (Depending on how far this addiction goes )

But it's always good to learn everyone's opinion, so some day, when people ask me these questions, I'll be knowledgable enough to answer them.

Oh and one more question about the oil film accumlating in the engine. Aren't there cleaning oils specifically designed to eat that stuff away once in a while? If so, that may be the safer answer, instead of risking an engine explode due to a cramped cable. Sometimes you don't know if those cables cramp, because they look fine when the bonnet's open, but when you close the bonnet, they may cramp badly!

Thanks again,
Jonathan

 

can someone confirm if i understood helix post correctly? colder plugs combined with bad gas results in bad knock sensor (detonation) could result with blown piston? where as stock plugs, bad gas, bad knock sensor - ruined spark plug only? sorry if this seems dumb but i wanted to be sure. thanks.

 

If I read it correctly, it says if you have bad gas, bad sensors, and you try pushing your car too hard, you could hurt something.

Off topic, but related to the topic title;
It's peanut butter jelly time!

 

From my limited understanding, a colder range spark plugs should help alleviate some detonation. .

References:

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinf...000&country=US

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinf...000&country=US

http://www.boschusa.com/AutoParts/FAQs/SparkPlugs/

http://www.centuryperformance.com/spark.asp

So if you think you might get some detonation from your higher boost and higher intake manifold air temperatures, then get a set of colder plugs such as Denso IK22s, JCW plugs, etc.

 

Thank you for asking the same question I had on my mind as I read this thread!

My understanding is that detonation occurs when excessive heat and pressure in the combustion chamber cause the air/fuel mixture to autoignite, resulting in multiple flame fronts when the spark plug fires as well. So:
Bad gas = lower combustion temperature, contributing to detonation
Bad knock sensor = no timing retard to prevent detonation
Colder spark plugs = no better or worse at this point than stock plugs?

What confuses me is that Eric@Helix states that he's witnessed the same amount of detonation regardless of plugs, then postulates that stock plugs would fail first in the event of the unfortunate combination of bad gas and bad knock sensors, as opposed to colder plugs. I have quite a bit of respect in for Eric and Helix for their fine tuning and excellent customer testimonials - I'm just not completely grasping what appears to be a juxtaposed theory at this time.

 

My point is that in our test, we didn't see a difference in detonation betweent the stock plugs and the Denso Iridium plugs. It may be that the Densos do reduce pre-ignition or detonation in some cars but in our test, there was no difference.

latte:

Your second paragraph very accurately summarizes my point.

BTW, I have seen no evidence that colder plugs hurt the car in any way, and for that matter, I haven't seen my above postulated scenario where a piston top or piston ring takes a dump with the colder plug still intact.

 

How many heat ranges of plugs did you check? Same heat range as stock? Just one heat range difference? Or did you try two or three ranges colder? What are you using to monitor detonation? Were you able to get any variations in detonation level by changing any parameters of the engine configuration or parameters (such as manifold intake temps, boost levels, octane, etc)?

 

We checked the IK22s, using a BiM Com Beta datalogger. We always try for consistency with IATs. Boost and octane will remain the same, as they did in this experiment, unless you change the the terminal speed of the run and add race gas. We did neither.

 

Nice.

 

so becoz colder iridium plugs last longer than stock plugs in this scenario, the bad knocking would continue and *kaboom* ur engine blows up? (over simplistic i know but u get the point).

helix - in ur testings etc, did u find anything 'bad' with running stock plugs on higher boost/temps etc?

 

Hey guys, real quick....I asked this a few posts up:

"Oh and one more question about the oil film accumlating in the engine. Aren't there cleaning oils specifically designed to eat that stuff away once in a while? If so, that may be the safer answer, instead of risking an engine explode due to a cramped cable. Sometimes you don't know if those cables cramp, because they look fine when the bonnet's open, but when you close the bonnet, they may cramp badly!"

If someone could maybe answer that, I'd appreciate it. Then you all can return to your spark plug talk.

Thanks!!

 

That's what the analogy seems to suggest. But I still don't quite comprehend how colder plugs could potentially cause more damage to the engine than stock plugs, considering that colder plugs would ignite the fuel mixture later than the stock plugs. After all, isn't detonation caused when the fuel mixture is ignited somewhere in the combustion chamber, then that flame front meets with the flame front caused by the spark from the plug? So once again, we're back to the point that colder plugs can help prevent detonation, but that also goes against Eric's finding that detonation occurs at the same rate regardless of the heat range of the plugs. Arrgh.

 

The only time I've seen plug damage is with poorly tuned cars. If you have the stock software, or well tuned sofware such as GIAC (shameless plug), you should have no problems with stock plugs.

 

I don't know if this will help or not...

I think Eric is proposing to create a known "weak link" in the ignition system. In that respect, the stock plug will fail (assuming one of the above mentioned senarios occurs, ie, bad gas, bad knock sensor, whatever) before any (much more) serious engine damage might occur. It's not that it WILL occur it's just that it might. This way, the plug failure will prevent the other more expensive problems...