didnt realize this wuz a cat less unit...in that case yea im feelin' u on that even more now!!!

 

^---- $1000 Worth of Stainless Hookers


^------$1000 Dollars worth of Stainless Milltek

Something is wrong with this picture.

 

i feel u im not arguin' the fact that its more steel for de money or less steel for de same $ its jus that if ur comparin' a design that has none of the extras that the new gen cars have ( flex pipes, cats & 02 sensor provision) plus the bigger market ( american cars ) its goin' to be a tuff comparison........and shorties/block huggers is what u want well for me so i can get real low to the ground w/out draggin' my sheit all over the place

 

Mmmm... Stainless hookers... I'm sure that the header is much better than what my mind is on.

 

The insulating effect also results in better exhaust gas velocity, & thus scavenging effect.

Some coatings, like Swain Tech claim to conserve as much as 60% of the heat which would escape an un-coated header. Others claim around 30%-40%.

Theoretically speaking a "cold air" intake using under-bonnet air would bennefit. One can also theorize that the intercooler core would benefit (heat-soak issues).

Whether or not a coating alone can improve power (dyno'd) on a MINI is another thing entirely... That said, I'll be having my header coated by Swain

 

Alta:
Nice looking product, 2.5” outlet is good too.

Why a 4-1 header? Who is your target audience? At the moment I’m thinking ‘trackies’ - as opposed to daily drivers... not that there’s anything wrong with that.

4-1 header (equal length primaries):
1) Develops power in the mid/upper rpm range – almost exclusively
2) Power tends be in one very defined peak
3) Maximum power is achieved WAY up in the rpm range
4) Change in primary length has a limited effect on the above – at least in the context of our application & street-able cars.

Contrast to 4-2-1 header:
4-2-1 headers pair cylinders, which are 180° apart in firing sequence. At overlap the exhaust pulse/gases from the emptying cylinder actually helps to pull charge into the corresponding 'filling cylinder', as they pass the Y collector. From what I’ve seen (dyno) benefit of this effect occurs fairly early in the rpm range (compared to 4-1).

Your header appears to employ two pairs of differing-length-tuned-primaries.
If so then you’ll be seeing two power peaks occurring at differing rpm – one for each tuned-pair/corresponding cylinders. This will spread the power out more than a single peak , but how much torque/hp & where?

Thoughts?

 

minimc,

you hit a point i have been thinking about since I saw the first aftermarket header for the MINI.

I thought to have a truly effective header, you wanted all the primaries to be equal length. I remember seeing some really crazy headers on BMW's of old that did all kind loops to get equal length. Even the Hookers above seem to be trying to be equal length. Have I lost my mind again?

something to still be seen, equal length + uniform cross-sectional area (no pinch points). Seems all the ones out there right now are more just 'smoothing the flow' than anything else since the stock version has that pinch on cylinders 1 and 4.

GMG

 

Hmmm, 4-1 or 4-2-1. I've been thinking about this for a while myself. While you guys debate the merits, how 'bout a head count? I'll start ....

4-1 headers:
Alta
GTT
Madness
Milltec
Quicksilver
MTH
Minisport
Megan
PlayMini

4-2-1 headers:
Supersprint
Ultrik (Mini Mania)
OBX

 

Thats a good reason for shorties too!

Anyways, a few prices from Summit for an O2 Sensor Bung and a Flex Pipe:

O2 Sensor Bung- $13 each
Flex pipe- 3" Stainless flex joint - $35

I still cant see where they are gerring the other $900 worth of tubing from.

 

Note that I said "lower side" of the dollar range - the header price range seems to be 200 - 1200 so mid point being 700 so I'm infering 700 or less.

And this is my point, when $ to hp align more sales occur. It would be an interesting poll to see 1) what % have headers and 2) then price paid. I'm guessing that headers increased noticebly as a % of population with the apperance of the 200 header.

Remember "I can appreciate what you have put into yours" which equals its worth more than the bottom of the line.

 

not-so-rednwhitecooper,
There are many reasons why Hooker makes headers less expensive. Production numbers, quality, material, weld chioce, accessories like cats, flex joints, and 02 bungs.

Lets take a look at numbers of a mustang. Yes they only sell 50-60K (performance models) a year, but they have been doing that for what, 50 years. Lots more cars out there than Mini's. 99% of these "less expensive headers" are not SS. SS cost 4 times more than mild steel, is harder to bend, and is a little trickier to weld. Which is why these headers are MIG welded not TIG welded, because it is quicker and easier. Look at the flanges, they are very thin, and are normally warped slightly.

The small things like cats, 02 bungs, and flex joints are an added expense which could easily add $200 to a header. So that is not something to overlook by any means.

There is no price gouging going on because our customer bought an expensive car, and they must be able to afford a higher price. I love how people think that companies jack the prices up just because the end user bought a really expensive car. If you think about it, a Porsche, low numbers produced, expensive car, and even fewer people modify them. This leaves a very very small amount of market to sell you parts to. Which in turn means very low production number for the parts. Which in turn adds up to a higher cost. Not to mention that generally the exotic car parts are made with higher quality materials and processes which also raise the price.

With that said, lets take a look at the mini. This customer generally whats a high quality part for a reasonable price. With the number of them out there and the types of materials used this makes them in the $600-$1000 range. Then look at a civic. 100 times more cars, and the car being older and less expensive by quite bit dictates that customer wants a low priced header, and is willing to sacrifice some quality to get this lower price. If i go buy a $2500 civic EX, i am not going to spend 1/3 of the price on a header. This i why headers for these cars are $200-$300.

We have explored the Mild steel ceramic coated stuff before but with our past experiences, these just don't hold up. I can think of 2 Hondas i had for about 2 years each and both ceramic coated headers i owned started to rust in that time. Yes many new car owners now adays don't keep cars for more than 2-3 years, but that doesn't mean we should make a header to last that long.

 

The unit is a system with a cat, not without. We will be offering it with out a cat for about $100-$150 less forgot to add that.

minimc,
If this was on an NA engine then everything you say is correct. This is why Some of the honda headers have primaries that are 2ft long or more. But with forced induction it isn't as critical. We are not relying on a scavenging effect to get air through the engine. Larger, longer tubes don't loose bottom end power like they do on a NA engine. This is why our future 3" exhaust will show further improvments over the 2.5" stuff.

But in the end Dyno numbers will show gains over stock, which hopefully will be more than others out there.

By the way the price for a high quallity dual liner flex joint is much more than $35, and add 2 bungs, and 1 high flow metallic cat, you get very close to $200. Which doesn't include extra trimming and welding associated with the cat install. I am not trying to justify Milltek prices, but i am showing how quickly things can add up.

 

I just wanted a bit of clarification on this part. Are you saying that it's ok to charge more because the car itself cost more? A new MCS can be about 25K, and a new Civic SI starts at 20K, so the price point for parts should be about the same, if it is vehicle price which dictates part price. Also in this category would be the WRX and Acura RSX, all which can have headers for around $500 on the high side.

Why is that, do you suppose?

 

My Civic/Honda example was for the very very common 92-98 models which are very cheap and very used. I should have said the year. If we are talking new cars, lets say the new 06 SI, i would expect customers to pay a little more because they are new, low numbers, and most likely a new fitment so existing parts can't be used. I think if you look at some of the RSX headers out there(newer car) that the high quality headers are in the neighborhood of $400-$500. When the RSX first came out, the headers availible for them were $400-$700!

 

That still puts them around $450 as the midpoint for a high quality header on a relatively "expensive" car, right?

 

Well, i'll wait out for a ceramic coated steel header or just buy an OBX.

Oh, i'm sorry, its $70 for a Stainless Steel, Collector Flange Inlet, 2.50 in. Inlet/2 in. Outlet, couragated inner, braided cover flex joint.

 

I should clarify one more thing. Remove the overseas parts from the equation. In the WRX world, headers are not $500, they are $700-$1200 for non over-seas parts. In fact our WRX header is $700. It has much more labor into the part because of the added bends and welds, but it is missing the cats, flexes, extra bungs......

As all cars get older and older the price people pay will be less because, in theory we will be making more of them, in turn dropping the price. This is why you see Civic headers years ago for $500, then as they years have gone by, and cars go out of warranty more demand is seen, cars are cheaper, more are made, and again the prices drop.

I think if Lamborgini sold 100K of their cars a year the potential customer base would be huge compared to now. So that $5000 exahust system will turn into a $800 one. Think if you made 10-50 exhaust a year for the lambos. They have to be that much to pay for tooling, fixtures, labor, fitting, testing, dynoing........ But if you can plan on selling hundreds then those cost are amertised out across the year or years, and the part price drops.

I am only giving examples of how we do business. There may be other companies out there that price gouge just because of the type of car or cost of car, but we are not one of those. We don't have some "luxery car" cost added to our parts.

 

Yes, customers get gouged on the first products to market, but prices tend to keep dropping as more products make it to market.

To all the critics... you act like you just bought a mini and this is your first look at aftermarket parts prices. Prices are high - solely because the market will bear it.

 

If we are getting right down to it, yes $70 for the lined flex, plus a $120 cat, and 2 SS bungs is over $200. That was my example. Also my experience with the ceramic coated stuff here in Oregon (no salted roads) was ok at best. Let alone in a place where they salt the roads. Those Steel coated parts are just not a lifetime type of part. And it is not something we want customers complaining about in a few years.

 

OBX isnt high

 

Hi Jeff,
I realize that FI lessens the need to scavenge, but there is still benefit to be had. How much?... that's the question

Regarding the (high quallity dual liner) flex joint you you are sourcing... How does it compare to OE - quality & size etc? Is it better or equivilent in construction? Will the Alta joint be larger (Ire Mon, pass the kouchie ) diameter/afford greater flow more than the OE item?

Thanks

 

Jeff,

How far from equal length are your primaries? what diameter are they too?

Just comparing it to the Madness one: http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=166

Thanks,

GMG

 

minimc,
How much is right. We don't think much but we will see! The flex joint is most likely the same Quality as OEM but it is a 2.5" so it is larger.

GoMiniGo,
The primaries are 1.5", and the length is roughly 12". I don't know how that compares to other headers but it is pretty drastic change from stock, in that the primaries are larger ID, and longer.

 

I am so glad that I started this thread as I hoped that allot of attention would be brought to it causing allot of good info, but all I have seen so far is a everyone trying to talk down the price if the header and OBX being brought up because it is a 200 dollar header. Yes I paid not 25,000 but closer to 30,000 as I got all of the options but at the same time I'm not going to put a header that doesn't fit right and is mass produced as cheaply as possible to keep the price down. Oh and also using the factory Cat in order to save a few dollars. Granted I have a 2005 with 3600 miles and have sunk almost 5,000 alone into engine mods. I might be a little different from most people. But I do know that everything that I have bought from Alta has been a direct bolt on application with outstanding instructions. So yes as everyone else I hope the price is closer to the 600 dollar price range but please don’t sacrifice HP or quality to do so. Also when I E-mailed Alta about the header the Cat-less header comes with an O2 simulator to keep the CEL light from coming on.

 

So? Just because it can be done without an 'annoying little light' showing up, doesn't mean it should be... The other headers coming to market seem to come with some 'delete' option, too, but that's for OFF ROAD. I hope you don't think that deleting the cats on our cars on the street is gonna net you perceptible power. It will net a few ponies at most.