Drivetrain Do it yourself water injection
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Many years ago, back in my college days driving a VW Beetle, I used water injection and got better mileage and better performance. That was a similar sized engine it was carbuerated, and of course the Beetle engine was air-cooled and naturally aspirated. As I recall it was good for about 2 MPG on my souped up Bug and it felt like I was running premium instead of regular.
I used a home made kit that cost about $10 back then, mainly for the little water pump. It pumped whenever the engine was running and the pumps lasted about a year. I wish MINI mods were that cheap and effective!
I used a home made kit that cost about $10 back then, mainly for the little water pump. It pumped whenever the engine was running and the pumps lasted about a year. I wish MINI mods were that cheap and effective!
Neutral
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Petrich
Bouray and Jeff,
Glad to hear of your interest. Am running 100% pure Seattle rain water.
Jeff's comments about a two stage and continuously variable water injection systems are correct for so many applications. That said, I don't think that level of complexity is necessary for the MCS system. But, what do I know? I documented a small loss of HP/torque at the low end with my single stage water injection and corrected this loss by adjusting the boost level where the water injection begins to about 14 PSI. In my situation, I am tuning with water injection as a first order attempt to minimize loss of power in a heat soak situation and at high boost levels with my 19% pulley (a.k.a. track days). I am not trying to squeeze the performance envelope for every last iota of torque.
I too am surprised at the lack of measurable power recovery with the post intercooler water injection. I drilled and tapped both the pre and post IC manifolds and installed identical injection nozzles in each side. Using my best "logic", I began the dyno runs with the post intercooler water injection connection, sure that that arrangement was a killer. No way, Jose! A quick switch of the water hose and blocking cap got me a repeatable HP improvements with the pre-intercooler manifold connection. Those are the facts.
Am interested in others experiences.
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
Glad to hear of your interest. Am running 100% pure Seattle rain water.
Jeff's comments about a two stage and continuously variable water injection systems are correct for so many applications. That said, I don't think that level of complexity is necessary for the MCS system. But, what do I know? I documented a small loss of HP/torque at the low end with my single stage water injection and corrected this loss by adjusting the boost level where the water injection begins to about 14 PSI. In my situation, I am tuning with water injection as a first order attempt to minimize loss of power in a heat soak situation and at high boost levels with my 19% pulley (a.k.a. track days). I am not trying to squeeze the performance envelope for every last iota of torque.
I too am surprised at the lack of measurable power recovery with the post intercooler water injection. I drilled and tapped both the pre and post IC manifolds and installed identical injection nozzles in each side. Using my best "logic", I began the dyno runs with the post intercooler water injection connection, sure that that arrangement was a killer. No way, Jose! A quick switch of the water hose and blocking cap got me a repeatable HP improvements with the pre-intercooler manifold connection. Those are the facts.
Am interested in others experiences.
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,926
Likes: 40
From: Greensboro, NC
Very interesting...could you elaborate on how your controller would work with the Mini?:smile: Your pump also looks different than others. Where do you store the liquid?
Thanks,
Sid
Thanks,
Sid
Originally Posted by dvldoc
PM sent, since your in my neck of the woods maybe you would like to try my progressive controller on your car instead of that simple boost switch
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
Likes: 4
From: Woodside, CA
Hmmm, I have a theory...
Originally Posted by Petrich
I too am surprised at the lack of measurable power recovery with the post intercooler water injection. I drilled and tapped both the pre and post IC manifolds and installed identical injection nozzles in each side. Using my best "logic", I began the dyno runs with the post intercooler water injection connection, sure that that arrangement was a killer. No way, Jose! A quick switch of the water hose and blocking cap got me a repeatable HP improvements with the pre-intercooler manifold connection. Those are the facts.
Am interested in others experiences.
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
Am interested in others experiences.
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
After the IC the air charge is cooler, and less water really turns into steam due to heat exchange with the air, maybe more is vaporized from contact with the surfaces as it goes towards the intake ports. This doesn't take any heat out of the charge....
I have no clue if this is what's happening, but it sure sounds good!
Matt
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,926
Likes: 40
From: Greensboro, NC
I'll buy that:smile: Makes sense to me
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
Before the IC the air charge is REALLY HOT! More energy will be taken out of the air charge by vaporizing the water into steam. The heat of vaporization is LARGE relative to the amount of enegy it takes to raise water temp while a liquid.
After the IC the air charge is cooler, and less water really turns into steam due to heat exchange with the air, maybe more is vaporized from contact with the surfaces as it goes towards the intake ports. This doesn't take any heat out of the charge....
I have no clue if this is what's happening, but it sure sounds good!
Matt
After the IC the air charge is cooler, and less water really turns into steam due to heat exchange with the air, maybe more is vaporized from contact with the surfaces as it goes towards the intake ports. This doesn't take any heat out of the charge....
I have no clue if this is what's happening, but it sure sounds good!
Matt
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 314
Likes: 1
From: Sammamish, WA
Matt and Sid,
I like Matt's theory. Likely, the water injected into the relatively cool, (relative to the boiling temperature of water) post-intercooler air stream just didn't vaporize. Didn't negatively affect the torque, but didn't contribute any significant cooling effect to the air column. Maybe, cleaned the combustion chambers when the water did finally vaporize.
The pre-intercooler water injection likely vaporizes the water much, much better due to the higher air temperatures straight out of the blower. I am not detecting any pooling of water down stream in the intercooler or in the recesses around the intercooler boots as the air column further cools. The vaporization likely is pretty complete. In pre-catch can days, could find engine oil pooling, in those cool, low air velocity pockets.
My WI system continues to work and I keep pinching myself to make sure that I'm not taking it for granted and missing some problem or other. Will get a better test of the effectiveness of water injection this month and next month when I have some track days with the ambient temperature above 80 degrees. My indicators of heat soak and high charge temperatures were pinging in 6th gear under load (on the freeway), and engine "apathy" after lap #2 and afterward on the track.
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
I like Matt's theory. Likely, the water injected into the relatively cool, (relative to the boiling temperature of water) post-intercooler air stream just didn't vaporize. Didn't negatively affect the torque, but didn't contribute any significant cooling effect to the air column. Maybe, cleaned the combustion chambers when the water did finally vaporize.
The pre-intercooler water injection likely vaporizes the water much, much better due to the higher air temperatures straight out of the blower. I am not detecting any pooling of water down stream in the intercooler or in the recesses around the intercooler boots as the air column further cools. The vaporization likely is pretty complete. In pre-catch can days, could find engine oil pooling, in those cool, low air velocity pockets.
My WI system continues to work and I keep pinching myself to make sure that I'm not taking it for granted and missing some problem or other. Will get a better test of the effectiveness of water injection this month and next month when I have some track days with the ambient temperature above 80 degrees. My indicators of heat soak and high charge temperatures were pinging in 6th gear under load (on the freeway), and engine "apathy" after lap #2 and afterward on the track.
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
And if water injected post IC is not changing state as desired (vapor), then it's taking-up volume that would otherwise be occupied by air. It seems more and more to make sense to do this pre IC, as John's research indicates...
As some know, I'm looking to put such a reservoir in the boot area. I was just thinking that it would be nice to utilize the line already in place for the rear window, since I never use that washer. Just disco it at the front reservoir, plug it there, and extend the hose forward to reach the pre IC snoot. In the back, disco it there, and re- route it (shortening as necessary) to the pump location. For a reservoir, I'm first going to try the driver side Xenon one that I recently removed:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=46365
I'm guessing that the included pump is not designed for such a task though (being on for longer durations). In it's Xenon existence, it sees very minimal useage...
As some know, I'm looking to put such a reservoir in the boot area. I was just thinking that it would be nice to utilize the line already in place for the rear window, since I never use that washer. Just disco it at the front reservoir, plug it there, and extend the hose forward to reach the pre IC snoot. In the back, disco it there, and re- route it (shortening as necessary) to the pump location. For a reservoir, I'm first going to try the driver side Xenon one that I recently removed:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=46365
I'm guessing that the included pump is not designed for such a task though (being on for longer durations). In it's Xenon existence, it sees very minimal useage...
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
The size of the pump needed is quite small actually. As for me, ideally, I'd like to mount the reservoir and pump within the boot side paneling, which is narrow, but fairly tall, like the reservoir I removed. If this proves to be too challenging, with no mufflers on either side, I have tons of room underneath to mount a tank or even two, and have access to fill it or them from above in the boot floor. Sufficient storage for me would be enough for 30 to 45 minutes of use, and no more. As an extreme, having 200 gallons onboard will not be desirable for weight concerns. A toggle to manually turn it off would be a must, and when on, an IAT trigger would be cool!
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
the temp to vaporize water is pretty high at 18psi above ambient pressure.
Perhaps the pre-intercooler injection increaes the thermal conductivity of the now moist air so the intercooler extracts heat more efficiently.
Perhaps the pre-intercooler injection increaes the thermal conductivity of the now moist air so the intercooler extracts heat more efficiently.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
John, would you know what temp that is (at 18 psi), and/or what formula to use? I just found these, but my ignorance prevents me from knowing if it's helpful or not:
http://www.mit.edu/people/goodmanj/m...8397.Ch.q.html
http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h101...h1012v1_68.htm
http://www.mit.edu/people/goodmanj/m...8397.Ch.q.html
http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h101...h1012v1_68.htm
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
I haven't thought about the triple point in 40 years, but that second link is showing the right idea. Using a more homespun example, my pressure cooker raises the boiling point of water from 212 to about 240 and probably runs at 10psi.
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