Drivetrain Boost advice?
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6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 35
From: Sacramento, CA
Boost advice?
Hi guys,
I was wondering what can cause boost to go over target then massively taper afterwards? I am thinking wastegate but not sure what would cause the boost drop.
Probably have a bad turbo since the dealer did not swap it during engine failure...
Target boost is 21psi. Actual spikes to 23-24psi then tapers to about 14psi.
Any ideas where to start?
Thanks.
I was wondering what can cause boost to go over target then massively taper afterwards? I am thinking wastegate but not sure what would cause the boost drop.
Probably have a bad turbo since the dealer did not swap it during engine failure...
Target boost is 21psi. Actual spikes to 23-24psi then tapers to about 14psi.
Any ideas where to start?
Thanks.
Our small stock turbo's most likely can't keep up with that amount of boost. Gotta think of the turbo as an air pump. If it can pump a higher volume of air than the motor needs you create positive pressure (boost). Since our turbos are small, they can't consistently produce a volume of air our motors need at higher RPM's which is why you get the big drop off. The engine is evacuating more air from the cylinders faster then the turbo can refill them. The drop off is also to prevent your turbo from reaching zero resistance and literally over spooling and destroying itself. This is the point where if you want to be able to produce more boost and hold it, you need to upgrade to a bigger turbo. The waste gate will only help in maintaining boost up until the point your turbo starts to over spool.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 35
From: Sacramento, CA
Our small stock turbo's most likely can't keep up with that amount of boost. Gotta think of the turbo as an air pump. If it can pump a higher volume of air than the motor needs you create positive pressure (boost). Since our turbos are small, they can't consistently produce a volume of air our motors need at higher RPM's which is why you get the big drop off. The engine is evacuating more air from the cylinders faster then the turbo can refill them. The drop off is also to prevent your turbo from reaching zero resistance and literally over spooling and destroying itself. This is the point where if you want to be able to produce more boost and hold it, you need to upgrade to a bigger turbo. The waste gate will only help in maintaining boost up until the point your turbo starts to over spool.
I guess the real issue is figuring out the boost spike.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 830
Likes: 31
From: NYC
temperature also has a huge factor. remember our tunes are typically set by changing the set torque values. so this means that the car/ecu will boost the car until the torque target value is achieved. on cold days, i don't go over 17PSI. on warm days, i'm between 18-20psi, and on REALLY HOT days, i'll hit 22psi. that's our timing being advanced or pulled back and yet the ecu is still boosting to achieve the target torque value.
on race fuel (4 gallons 101 octane, rest on 93) on a really hot day, (93 degrees) i was sitting at 16-17PSI...car ran great.
on race fuel (4 gallons 101 octane, rest on 93) on a really hot day, (93 degrees) i was sitting at 16-17PSI...car ran great.
Interesting... so is there a check factor or something that comes into play to keep you from blowing up an engine on a hot day? Max boost regardless if it's hitting the torque target? A hot day in LA valleys is often over 100, and if I'm headed to the desert for some reason, could be 110 or more. Thanks.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 830
Likes: 31
From: NYC
Interesting... so is there a check factor or something that comes into play to keep you from blowing up an engine on a hot day? Max boost regardless if it's hitting the torque target? A hot day in LA valleys is often over 100, and if I'm headed to the desert for some reason, could be 110 or more. Thanks.
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6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 35
From: Sacramento, CA
What boost pressures do you guys see close to redline?
Also, what peak boost pressures do you guys see while tuned?
Figuring out if the taper I experience is normal due to turbo limitations or something else.
Thanks!
Also, what peak boost pressures do you guys see while tuned?
Figuring out if the taper I experience is normal due to turbo limitations or something else.
Thanks!
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6th Gear
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,361
Likes: 246
From: Washington state
Are you using the stock turbo? I gathered that you are from your post, but just wanted to make sure.Just to be clear, I don’t have a good idea as to what the problem may be or how to figure that out. I’m just answering your other question.
As far as the boost goes, How quickly are you losing the boost pressure? Is it hitting 22 (or whatever you hit) then starting to drop almost right away? And how quickly does it drop? Are you sure you don’t have a boost leak?
On a 3rd or 4th gear pull, with a JCW turbo, my target is 22psi at 5K RPM, and it will hold there as long as I hold my foot in it, all the way to the red. Even under a steady throttle though, the boost will go up or down depending on the engine load. If I am going along on the highway or something, if I give it like half throttle, the boost will jump right up, but does start to decrease almost right away as the load on the engine changes even though I haven’t changed the throttle position. Could this be what you are experiencing?
As far as the boost goes, How quickly are you losing the boost pressure? Is it hitting 22 (or whatever you hit) then starting to drop almost right away? And how quickly does it drop? Are you sure you don’t have a boost leak?
On a 3rd or 4th gear pull, with a JCW turbo, my target is 22psi at 5K RPM, and it will hold there as long as I hold my foot in it, all the way to the red. Even under a steady throttle though, the boost will go up or down depending on the engine load. If I am going along on the highway or something, if I give it like half throttle, the boost will jump right up, but does start to decrease almost right away as the load on the engine changes even though I haven’t changed the throttle position. Could this be what you are experiencing?
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 35
From: Sacramento, CA
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 35
From: Sacramento, CA
Unless it’s just the turbo running out of breath at that boost level. I’d like to know what other people see with tunes.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 830
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From: NYC
that seems expected by me. i've had 2 different tunes and both of them taper the boost after peak. by redline you're down between 15-17psi (at least for me). i say 15-17 as what i mentioned before regarding boost at varying temps.
IMO, that is normal.
IMO, that is normal.
6th Gear
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,361
Likes: 246
From: Washington state
I don’t know.... maybe the turbo is just running out of breath or the ECU is lowering the target after you hit peak, so that it doesn’t run out? Maybe someone who is running the stock turbo with a tune can chime in. Has it always done this or is it a new thing? I have a little bit bigger turbo on there now, so my car won’t behave quite the same...the tune probably makes a big difference as well. What kind of tune do you have...manic?
6th Gear
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,361
Likes: 246
From: Washington state
Yes there is. If you’re just running the factory tune, you can run a higher level of boost, or keep it around the stock range. It makes an improvement right away, because with a bigger turbo, it doesn’t have to work as hard to provide the same level of boost, and at the same time, it’s moving more cfm of air at that same boost pressure. More air = more HP :-)
with a tune it’s nice because it (still) doesn’t have to work as hard as the stock turbo, and it doesn’t want to run out of breath at higher rpm’s.
with a tune it’s nice because it (still) doesn’t have to work as hard as the stock turbo, and it doesn’t want to run out of breath at higher rpm’s.
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