As a point of reference, my Wagner Competition consistently stays right AT ambient during cruise, I would be the clones do as as well. During single gear pulls, like passing someone, it'll rise 4-6 f over ambient, racing up a nearby mountain which is about an hours drive, I'm in boost almost the entire way up it. During that trip, temps stayed within 8f and I was NOT being gentle to the car haha.

It's good the ebay's can stay within 10, very effective, and honestly, the 4-6 may be a sensor calibration error on my car, who knows. I had a Forge knock off originally and swapped to the Wag Comp after about a month. I noticed NO difference from the drivers seat. The swap was in anticipation of Autocross and mountain climbing, I just wanted to be sure the IATs would stay as close to ambient as possible while ravaging the car on track, more for my peace of mind than any hard data.

 

Trying to bring back this thread. It has been one of the best I've read on this site. I am looking to upgrade my intercooler and thus very interested in the Ebay knockoffs. Wagner is $590, JCW is $420, Helix $600, ATM $650 (aren't they the same?), and the ridiculous Forge is $810. I would of course love to save hundreds of dollars if I can. I have a hard time trusting most things made in China and I hate that they steal our intellectual property and sell knockoffs. On the other hand, I'm a teacher and I don't get paid crap. And thus a $165 intercooler might be enough for me to sell my soul lol.

Most of the links to Ebay are dead because they are old. Not sure how you know which one to buy. Seems like so many are out there. Also, do all of these fit the R60? Thanks! Miss the group buys that used to be out there!

 

I have 50,000 manic tuned miles on this one. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fron...AbTest=ae803_3 But if I ever need to replace it I would go with this one. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/new-...AbTest=ae803_3

 

I have 50k+ Manic tuned miles on the second one (Wagner knock-off), and its been great.

From my research, nothing wrong with the ebay units. But, the one complaint is quality of castings, welds, fins... Just make sure you inspect it when received.

 

I have 15000 miles stage 2 manic and all bunch of other $&%%&;%t, will buy one anytime, and I drive HARD.
Ben

 

These say they're compatible with 2007-2012; is there any reason why they wouldn't work on a 2013?

 

2011 - 2013 are the updated "LCI" version of the car, so there are some differences from the 2007-2010. Mainly the lower "crash bar" below the front bumper, look at realoem.com for the details. I had to get out the angle grinder to put a notch in the lower bar so my intercooler would fit. But 2012 and 2013 should be the same.

 

And the R60 is the same? These will fit?

 

I have zero experience with the R60 so maybe someone else can comment on that. Also do a search, there are plenty of threads on intercooler installs with pictures.

For example, https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...tion-pics.html

 

This video and this NAM thread belong with this discussion:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ooler-psa.html

​​​​​​​

 

Hi - I just bought a "Rev9" Intercooler off ebay, mostly because the GPlus is out of stock from all the ebay sellers and they are saying a couple of months. It is surprisingly heavy. Definitely the cast end pieces that I was looking for. I'm having a problem installing it - the center lug hits the crash bar - the lug seems to be about 1 cm too far forward. The car is a 2010 Clubman S with a build date of 12/2009.

Option 1 is cut the lug off, but then what do I do to stabilize the top of the intercooler?
Option 2 is try to cram it in, and let it make hard contact against the condenser. It seems like they would rub and not be happy.
Option 3? Find someone to cut and reweld the lug? Not sure who/how...

Anyone have advice? Suggestions?

 

I cut the tabs off. Seemed secure enough with the two stock mounts holding it in.

 

^ yep

 

Thanks. Always like having some other "eyes" on a problem like this.

I cut the tab off and it fits very well otherwise - didn't have to trim the plastic at all for the hoses. The front top edge is close to touching the crash bar now, so I put a cushion in the small gap to prevent it developing a rattle there.

 

My g plus I had to trim the plastic, which wasn’t much, but I was able to keep the tabs on the intercooler and I was also able to keep the tabs on the lower grill where the temp sensor mounted. It was tight but all tabs and screws are back in.

 

This is the way.

 

I have spoken

 

Purchased the Rev9 IC for my JCW. I am very impressed with the quality.

I cut the tab off as well. It still would not fit so i removed the steel bumper crush bar, then it fit and I would not have had to cut the tab.
Cutting the tab would have been just fine as it is completely secure, unfortunately the bumper will not go back on as the bottom grill is in the way on left/right corners. I have trimmed as much as possible but still no success.

I was advised by Rev9 the ICK_074 was the right IC but they could not ship it to me as I live in Cali so I ended up ordering on Ebay. So I will need to purchase an IC that is 1/4" thinner which leaves me stuck with a really nice Rev9 IC which I will list for sale now at a great price. If interested before I post please PM

 

All – this thread is a great read, and given I am building an R57 street ( vs track ) car, I wanted to understand the impact of upgrading to an aftermarket intercooler.

From some of the data logging, I thought I would try to do the thermo/math at a high level to see how the different delta temps between the intercoolers would affect theoretical hp. Note – these calculations are first order theoretical approximations ( I used some of the work referenced in Corky Bell’s book – Maximum Boost and even called him to review the results – not the math though. Corky and I pretty good friends. I did not get much out of him, as he just had hip surgery and was enjoying the sunset with his homemade margaritas. I also could not find his book, so referenced some of the calculations from a Motor Trend article by Marlan Davis that Corky recommended. I also had to make a few assumptions too, as I did not have all the measurements needed ).

For this analysis, I used the data logging of “4mikebruns” that was later reported by “scotty_r56s” in this thread, as well as “scotty_r56s” data.

Okay – lets get to it:

First let’s calculate the intercooler efficiencies. For this, we need Inlet Intercooler Temp, Outlet Intercooler Temp, and Ambient Temp. I’ll assume IAT is Outlet Intercooler Temp.

Note – there is a difference in ambient temps between OEM and Aftermarket intercooler runs ( 11 F. I’ll do the calculations using the different ambient temps and still do the comparisons. I don’t think the temp differences observed would change to much over this range ).

So we have outlet temp (IAC) and Ambient Temp from the data. Max IAT is 93 F for the OEM intercooler ( IAT above ambient would then be 49 F ). The one measurement we do not have is Inlet Intercooler Temp. I am going to assume this at 250 F ( Corky has this range published as 230 – 260 F for standard car air-air intercoolers ).

Intercooler Efficiency = ( Inlet Temp – Outlet Temp )/( Inlet Temp – Ambient Temp ):

For OEM: (250-93)/(250-44) = 0.7621 => 76% intercooler efficiency

For Aftermarket: (250 -68)/(250-55) = 0.9333 => 93% intercooler efficiency

This makes sense for OEM, as at the time Corky published Maximum Boost – typical intercooler efficiencies are in the 60-70% range. I am sure this has gotten better since. And there is a big improvement in efficiency going to the aftermarket intercooler.

Okay – now we have to calculate density change of the air from intercooling, which is done via temperature changes in the Absolute temp scale ( ie Kelvin the scale, where K approx= F + 460 ).

For the OEM intercooler, Absolute outlet Temp = Kelvin + ambient temp + temp increase after intercooler = 460 + 44 + 250*(1-0.76) = 563 K ( note we had to add in ambient temp for absolute ), Absolute Inlet Temp = 460 + 250 + 44 = 754K.

Density Change = ( Absolute Inlet Temp K – Absolute Outlet Temp K )/( Absolute Outlet Temp K ) = ( 754 – 532 )/(532 ) ~ 0.34

For Aftermarket intercooler = ( 765 – 532 )/532 ~ 0.44



Now the increase in density charge, in theory, is supposed to be the increase in power from intercooling. So OEM intercooler adds 34%, while aftermarket intercooler adds 44%. Note - this is why you get an aftermarket tune after adding an aftermarket intercooler, to take full advantage of the denser air to feed more fuel, add timing etc. I don't know if “4mikebruns” did a tune after the aftermarket intercooler install, but believe he had a tune prior.

However, we need to subtract horsepower do to pressure loss in the intercooler. I am going to SWAG this as 1 psi pressure loss for 20 psi of boost ( which I am assuming is around max boost. Note; an old adage is 1 psi loss for 10 psi boost, so this is half that ). I am also going to assume the aftermarket intercooler has double the loss of the oem, as it is at least double the run. 1 psi loss could be hi/low – but let’s use them for now.

HP loss from intercooler pressure loss = ((Std pressure + pressure w/o intercooler) – (Std pressure + pressure w/intercooler ) )/(Std pressure + pressure w/o intercooler ).

Std pressure = 14.7 psi.

So for OEM intercooler HP loss = ( (14.7 + 20) – (14.7 + 19) )/(14.7 + 20) ~ 3%

For Aftermarket intercooler HP loss ~ 6%

So finally, we have estimated hp gain from intercooling:

OEM intercooler bhp gain = 31%

Aftermarket intercooler bhp gain = 38%

So if the bhp is 172 hp ( stock R56 S with oem intercooler ), then that implies a non intercooled BHP of 131. The bhp of using the aftermarket intercooler would then be 181 hp. This shows a gain of 9bhp. Assuming a driveline loss of 15%, that would be a gain of 8 hp.

If we are to imagine we have a highly modded mini that has 290 bhp ( 247 whp ), then switching to an aftermarket intercooler would provide a gain of 16 bhp ( 14 whp ). And for this highly modded car, lets say intercooler pressure loss was only 0.5 psi for OEM and 1 psi for aftermarket. You would then see a gain of 19 bhp ( 16 whp ). However if intercooler pressure loss is 2 psi, then this gain halves to10 bhp ( 8 whp ).

Below find tables of both bhp & whp gains across hp, and intercooler pressure loss ( this is where I would insert the tables. Note sure where they will end up in this post )











So the change to the aftermarket intercooler increases with performance mods, but decreases with intercooler psi loss. I am not sure what will happen when ambient temp increases ( if I had to guess the aftermarket might have an advantage ).

Cavets: There are some big assumptions on the missing temp and whp numbers and impact of tuning; This is first order and ignoring many other variables.

Also – any reduction in heat is a good thing. Not just for better performance, but to also minimize failure. Heat accelerates failure. Mostly it is the heat associated with high performance and the mis management of it that causes premature failure.

I observed that the IAT above ambient for the aftermarket intercooler was negative during some of the run – which does not make sense to me and makes me question some of the measurement accuracy.

Important note – this is the max ambient/outlet difference. HP gains shrink when we are under that . For about 80% of the run, OEM intercooler has a max temp rise of 35 or less, while aftermarket is 8 or less. This would decrease the hp difference as efficiencies of the oem and aftermarket get closer ( 83% and 96% ).

So in short – gain in hp with a good aftermarket intercooler in a stock/lightly modded car will just be felt at the seat of the pants level. For highly modded, this increases ( smile factor goes up ). How much it is felt is dependent on the application ( track, autocross, street, … ). If you are doing an engine build or taking the front end off, it is a no brainer to install an aftermarket intercooler, as lower temps are always good. However, see if you can make sure to get one that has both high efficiency and minimal pressure loss ( the latter will kill performance gains if there is to much pressure loss ). Do a tune to take full advantage of the benefits of the extra cooling capacity.

Disclaimer: Not all of this is verified, just calculations and approximations – so take with a grain of salt ! Since this is a non covid analysis, you are allowed to question the science 😊

PS Given what I saw for the performance of this aftermarket IC ie ~ 10 degree difference between Ambient Temp and IAC ), the extra dollars would be hard to justify for the high dollar intercoolers, unless there is massive pressure loss in the non branded one you are considering. Or rather, lowering temps from 10 degrees above ambient to ambient would provide essentially no material performance gains. You are already very efficient.