Drivetrain Quaife ATB differential in an R56: What I've learned
#51
01-04-2019, 08:24 AM
json - What mods have you done to the car? What tires and brake pads are you running? And do you know if your MINI is a factory JCW or is it a dealer installed JCW? The dealer installed JCW is where a MINI Cooper S is upgraded to a JCW. They add the brakes, exhaust and JCW tune. But what else goes with the upgrade is recoding of the ABS software to make the ABS system compatible with the JCW brakes. If this is not done with an upgrade from an S to JCW brakes (or in my case, the addition of the Wilwood BBK), the ABS will be way too agressive, which includes the EDLC and it will cook the brakes. If you have a factory JCW this should not be an issue.
Back to the DLC switch. json - your “a” and “b” discriptions are pretty good. In the owner’s manual it says that the “b” position is for where a little bit of slip is beneficial, such as, in snow. On my 2021 the word “traction” shows up in the tach. It doesn’t turn anything off (it will still correct a slide in corners and limit straight line wheel spin) but as you said the intervention is less agressive. For the “c” mode (press and hold for 10 sec or more) all of the DTC functions are disabled, except for the EDLC (the eLSD).
For the track, I will always start the day with the DTC in “a” mode. As I settle in and regain the feel of the car, I will switch to the “b” mode. I will never run in the “c” mode. I rarely see the DTC light come on when I am in the “b” mode and I would say I drive pretty aggressively.
I have had the BBK upgrade done to my car and I have the Quaife. Both of these help a great deal. But, as big of a help has been to have an instructor in the car on a regular basis. The more I learn, the less I see of the DTC light.
Back to the DLC switch. json - your “a” and “b” discriptions are pretty good. In the owner’s manual it says that the “b” position is for where a little bit of slip is beneficial, such as, in snow. On my 2021 the word “traction” shows up in the tach. It doesn’t turn anything off (it will still correct a slide in corners and limit straight line wheel spin) but as you said the intervention is less agressive. For the “c” mode (press and hold for 10 sec or more) all of the DTC functions are disabled, except for the EDLC (the eLSD).
For the track, I will always start the day with the DTC in “a” mode. As I settle in and regain the feel of the car, I will switch to the “b” mode. I will never run in the “c” mode. I rarely see the DTC light come on when I am in the “b” mode and I would say I drive pretty aggressively.
I have had the BBK upgrade done to my car and I have the Quaife. Both of these help a great deal. But, as big of a help has been to have an instructor in the car on a regular basis. The more I learn, the less I see of the DTC light.
Mine is a factory JCW (2009). 100% stock, except for the Goodrich stainless-steel brake line kit. No other mods.
When you say the "DTC light", you mean when it actually intervenes. Because when you turn DTC on, there's always a light on (on the tacho), indicating that it is enabled. When it actually kicks in, there's a flashing indication on the RPM gauge. When I mentioned earlier, that it is impossible for it not to kick in, I had it wrong in my mind (confusing DTC and e-diff, which apparently are totally separate things!). The effect on the front brakes is actually imposed by the e-diff (and not by the DTC, as I thought up until now). Correct?
Meaning that even if I turn off everything (hold DTC button for 10secs or so..), the e-diff will still regulate the brakes during hard cornering, right? Haven't tried that, as I was too conservative. Didn't want risking crashing the car!
But if my above assumption is correct, a Quaife LSD-enabled JCW, will have no need for the DTC (or any electronic assistance) to be turned on, wouldn't it? But how would the build in e-diff and the Quaife LSD cooperate then? In such scenario, does the mechanical LSD regulate torque in a way so that there's no need for the e-diff to intervene?
#52
01-04-2019, 11:10 AM
The gp2 supposedly has the best e-diff
quaife engineers confirmed to me face to face that their diff would be complimentary to the electronics (or visa versa) and so is a worthy upgrade, if in doubt do it
mine is due to be fitted later this month, jcw 2012 roadster n14, so if your in no hurry I can report back during Easter when I start to get some miles back on it ( sorry car is a summer toy only )
quaife engineers confirmed to me face to face that their diff would be complimentary to the electronics (or visa versa) and so is a worthy upgrade, if in doubt do it
mine is due to be fitted later this month, jcw 2012 roadster n14, so if your in no hurry I can report back during Easter when I start to get some miles back on it ( sorry car is a summer toy only )
#53
01-04-2019, 11:30 AM
Hi Eddie
Mine is a factory JCW (2009). 100% stock, except for the Goodrich stainless-steel brake line kit. No other mods.
When you say the "DTC light", you mean when it actually intervenes. Because when you turn DTC on, there's always a light on (on the tacho), indicating that it is enabled. When it actually kicks in, there's a flashing indication on the RPM gauge. When I mentioned earlier, that it is impossible for it not to kick in, I had it wrong in my mind (confusing DTC and e-diff, which apparently are totally separate things!). The effect on the front brakes is actually imposed by the e-diff (and not by the DTC, as I thought up until now). Correct?
Meaning that even if I turn off everything (hold DTC button for 10secs or so..), the e-diff will still regulate the brakes during hard cornering, right? Haven't tried that, as I was too conservative. Didn't want risking crashing the car!
But if my above assumption is correct, a Quaife LSD-enabled JCW, will have no need for the DTC (or any electronic assistance) to be turned on, wouldn't it? But how would the build in e-diff and the Quaife LSD cooperate then? In such scenario, does the mechanical LSD regulate torque in a way so that there's no need for the e-diff to intervene?
Mine is a factory JCW (2009). 100% stock, except for the Goodrich stainless-steel brake line kit. No other mods.
When you say the "DTC light", you mean when it actually intervenes. Because when you turn DTC on, there's always a light on (on the tacho), indicating that it is enabled. When it actually kicks in, there's a flashing indication on the RPM gauge. When I mentioned earlier, that it is impossible for it not to kick in, I had it wrong in my mind (confusing DTC and e-diff, which apparently are totally separate things!). The effect on the front brakes is actually imposed by the e-diff (and not by the DTC, as I thought up until now). Correct?
Meaning that even if I turn off everything (hold DTC button for 10secs or so..), the e-diff will still regulate the brakes during hard cornering, right? Haven't tried that, as I was too conservative. Didn't want risking crashing the car!
But if my above assumption is correct, a Quaife LSD-enabled JCW, will have no need for the DTC (or any electronic assistance) to be turned on, wouldn't it? But how would the build in e-diff and the Quaife LSD cooperate then? In such scenario, does the mechanical LSD regulate torque in a way so that there's no need for the e-diff to intervene?
When I mentioned earlier, that it is impossible for it not to kick in, I had it wrong in my mind (confusing DTC and e-diff, which apparently are totally separate things!). The effect on the front brakes is actually imposed by the e-diff (and not by the DTC, as I thought up until now). Correct?? Meaning that even if I turn off everything (hold DTC button for 10secs or so..), the e-diff will still regulate the brakes during hard cornering, right? Haven't tried that, as I was too conservative. Didn't want risking crashing the car!?
#54
01-04-2019, 11:37 AM
The gp2 supposedly has the best e-diff
quaife engineers confirmed to me face to face that their diff would be complimentary to the electronics (or visa versa) and so is a worthy upgrade, if in doubt do it
mine is due to be fitted later this month, jcw 2012 roadster n14, so if your in no hurry I can report back during Easter when I start to get some miles back on it ( sorry car is a summer toy only )
quaife engineers confirmed to me face to face that their diff would be complimentary to the electronics (or visa versa) and so is a worthy upgrade, if in doubt do it
mine is due to be fitted later this month, jcw 2012 roadster n14, so if your in no hurry I can report back during Easter when I start to get some miles back on it ( sorry car is a summer toy only )
#55
01-04-2019, 07:30 PM
v10climber - I thought the mechanical LSD was still available in 2009 and that the it was standard on the JCW, and that the EDLC was made available in 2010. Sorry if I am confused here, but I am pretty sure this was the case for the S. Did they do something different for the JCW in 2009?
The factory LSD may have still been available in 2009 but I'm somewhat sure that the 2nd gen fJCW was always equipped with the e-diff and only the e-diff. All years. I'd love to be proven wrong though. We just bought a 2009 fJCW (why I'm back on the forums) and it would be nice if this car had a proper diff. I could have looked when I replaced the axle seal but didn't think about it. Although this one won't see hard autocross like our old 2010. We've got something else for that purpose now.
Meaning that even if I turn off everything (hold DTC button for 10secs or so..), the e-diff will still regulate the brakes during hard cornering, right? Haven't tried that, as I was too conservative. Didn't want risking crashing the car!
But if my above assumption is correct, a Quaife LSD-enabled JCW, will have no need for the DTC (or any electronic assistance) to be turned on, wouldn't it? But how would the build in e-diff and the Quaife LSD cooperate then? In such scenario, does the mechanical LSD regulate torque in a way so that there's no need for the e-diff to intervene?
But if my above assumption is correct, a Quaife LSD-enabled JCW, will have no need for the DTC (or any electronic assistance) to be turned on, wouldn't it? But how would the build in e-diff and the Quaife LSD cooperate then? In such scenario, does the mechanical LSD regulate torque in a way so that there's no need for the e-diff to intervene?
In normal situations the new quaife mechanical diff will bias torque between the two front wheels and the e-diff basically never intervenes. Where the e-diff helps is if you're lifting a front wheel due to hopping curbs or bumps or something. With a wheel unloaded a mechanical diff basically becomes an open diff and the e-diff would help keep from putting all the power through the unloaded wheel. It's not as effective as a clutch diff if you're really aggressive on the curbs but it also doesn't come with some of the setup compromises required to make an aftermarket clutch type diff (OS Giken) work.
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json (01-05-2019)
#56
01-05-2019, 06:08 AM
The factory LSD may have still been available in 2009 but I'm somewhat sure that the 2nd gen fJCW was always equipped with the e-diff and only the e-diff. All years. I'd love to be proven wrong though. We just bought a 2009 fJCW (why I'm back on the forums) and it would be nice if this car had a proper diff. I could have looked when I replaced the axle seal but didn't think about it. Although this one won't see hard autocross like our old 2010. We've got something else for that purpose now.
Or would the old school way of checking for a mechanical LSD work? That is, jack up the 2 front wheels and see how the front wheels turn when one person rotates a wheel and another person tries to hold the other one. I seem to remember reading that the MINI mechanical LSD was a cone type, which is sort-of like a disk type.
#58
01-05-2019, 07:05 AM
I know that 2 friends of mine had Cooper S’s and their cars both had mechanical LSDs; one was a 2008. And the other’s was in an accident and her replace was a 2010 and the LSD was no longer an option.
Just FWI, I did a quick search and found this post about the MINI mechanical LSD:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ml#post1740430
Interesting post and thread in general. There is more about the MINI LSD in the following posts of that thread.
json - hope this has helped and that you get the issues you are having sorted out. Let us know how it goes.
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