I posted this on PS Mini but there is a wider audience on NAM.

This is nuts!!!!!!!! Pure 13 made an offer to test all cars that have an Evotech tune at his expense. So far, no one has responded.

We have 3 cars that were at the May Dyno Day that had this tune and one other, keep right, that went to speed factory and had a read of his ECU done but has yet to publically reveal the extent of the changes made to his ECU.

As I recall, Mini Madness, was quick to publically ask for additonal information when they noticed the Evotech tuned cars didn't fair too well at the May Dyno Day but never seemed to publically post their findings after receiving the dyno run information.

What were these findings and why weren't they published?

What comprises a tune? Any tune? Don't know about you but I'd like to know what I'm spending money for if I buy a tune. Used to know this in the old days, when you adjusted the timing, changed the points, richen or leaned out the carbs, syncronized them and off you went!

You might be asking why I'm asking these questions. Simple, I want a tune for my R56. So far there isn't anything but Unichip and JCW and the reviews are mixed for Unichip and the JCW is really expensive since you get hard parts with the tune (I already have an exhaust and K&N drop in filter). Jan said a tune will be coming, GIAC is rumored to be working on one and Mini Madness/George's website states the following: COMING SOON for the 2007 R56 MINI Cooper S Turbo and Clubman!! Currently producing 28 Horsepower and 27ft Lbs of Torque. The price $849.00.

None of these current or future products are cheap. I think Pure 13 paid $645.00 for his tune. But what did he get. What will I get if I buy a JCW, GIAC, Jan, Evotech, Shark Injector, whatever company tune is out there?

Pure 13 got a change to rev limit and DSC threshold. Does this constitute a tune these days?

What did the other Evotech buyers get?

I'm not talking about achieving XXX hp and XXX tq. What's being done to the ECU and the car.

With the Jan tune, at least you have a baseline right at the time you have him work on installing it and then he starts doing whatever he does to get better HP & TQ numbers. Something changes but what about these other products.

Pure 13 is giving us a chance to find out on the Evotech cars.

Why can't this happen? Why all the reluctance, secrects, finger pointing, defensiveness, veiled accusations and general unwillingness to come forward with what changes are made with a tune! Any tune!

I'm not asking anyone to reveal their secrets to a tune! Just what comprises a tune! How do you know you actually received it. It's nothing you can pick up and look at, touch and see how smooth it is or examine it delicate features. You can't even see it.

Come on people. NW Mini, George, Jan, somebody at GIAC, anybody! Shed some light on this and let's find out if Pure 13 got what he paid for and what the other people received for their hard earned cash.

I'll apologise now, if this offended anyone, but to me this is a no-brainer. Experts: Tell us what's involved and if the Pure 13 experience is normal?

Hope we get more contributions on this including info from owners of Evotech tuned cars. We did get 2 thoughtful post so far on PS Mini including one from Keep Right explaining what's going on with him.

 

A "tune" by RMW standards consists of this:
Optimise:

A/F mixture trim to our criteria for safe engine operation and longevity
Timing changes to get the most safe tq and HP
Traction control adjustments
throttle sensitivity to take out the lag of drive by wire
RPM limiter adjustment
driveability maps to take out the flat spots so you have a smooth driving experience.........


We are the ONLY tuning company in the world to have mapped the following cars.........

Turbo only cars
M62 cars
M45 cars with all configurations
R53 Rotrex cars
2.0L stroker cars with M45
2.0L stroker turbo car

We have the total tuning solution for R53s and soon for R56s. For those that continue to say slanderous things about our tuning should just look above. There is NO OTHER TUNER who has made maps for these cars. How can they say we are stealing maps when we are the only ones tuning these cars? We are the leading MINI tuner and will be for quite some time.

Our software shows exactly what has been changed in the ECU. There is NO DOUBT what was changed as I have ALL of the factory maps. When something is changed it shows on the software. Safety Sean/keep right came down to Tacoma and we read his ecu with the Evotech software. It was the same as Pure13s. There is no doubt that was the map that was installed as there have been numerous other ones I have read around the country that had the exact same map on them.

Ask anyone who has been to our tuning days and you will find one common theme
We show you real world before and afters and the driveability is worlds apart from the rest. There is a reason people are having me fly around the country to tune Mini's on almost a weekly basis.

 

pure13's experience is by no means normal for the "tuning" community. The biggest problem we MINI owners face is the fact that the ECU is not easily "cracked". What constitutes a tune is a very good question. You will probably have some very different answers depending on who you ask. I guess you could argue that because it did "tune" the RPM limit and adjust the DSC sensitivity that it is actually a tune. Does it do what was advertised.......IMHO no. This is the real problem with canned tunes, the inability to verify the product once installed. Canned tunes are by there very nature someones "best guess" as to what will work for any particular car. One of the participants of the tuning party had a Shark Injector canned tune. Jan looked at the maps and refused to do the first dyno pull because he was cincerned about damaging the engine. The tune was so out of whack that he had to install one of his "stock" maps to do the baseline pull.

RMW (Jan) has one of a very limited means of accessing the ECU programming. If you are lucky enough to watch him work you will understand what the word CUSTOM means. He tunes every car to get the maximum safe power he can. He doesn't rely on a "canned" tune, one that is a best guess for your particular car. For example, my 04 MCS has the basic mods......15%, Alta CAI, One ball, and JCW injectors installed the weekend before the tune. My baseline first dyno pull came up to 195hp. Jan was very surprised because he had been stating that the early models tended to have worse tolerances in the engine and historically tended to be on the low side for power. After his tune I got up to 206hp. Once he was happy with the map he made he made the next run to verify everything was good and safe. What he did next really shows his concern about his customers, he ran the next dyno pull immediately after the previous one. He wanted a "hot" pull just to check to make sure he wasn't to close to the edge on the tune and maybe cause problems when the engine was hot. You can read the posts on NAM with the different results the owners got after the tunes. There is no way a canned tune is going to be able to guarantee any kind of reliable power for any particular car, there are just to many differences between cars to make this a viable alternative to a custom tune. And unfortunately you won't be able to verify what was done to your ECU after a canned tune unless you have the software/device to read the ECU maps.

I really hope this is an isolated incident and not an industry standard, but with the lack of verifiable evidence we are at the mercy of the vendor/suppliers.

Let's hope that Evotech will step up and take care of this problem (all though this is by no means the only canned tune that has caused problem).

 

That's why Jan's coming to Chicago!

 

If after your "tune" you find yourself asking "what was it, and did i receive it"
I'd be willing to bet it wasn't and you didn't.

After Jan did my R52 S, I could FEEL an immediate and noticeable difference (as well as see on the charts) the car is smoother thru all RPMs, pulls stronger and seems to just run better overall.

From what I know, the R56 has not yet been "cracked" so while you might get some response from a 'tune' to it, its experimental at this phase, but again, if you have to ask if you got a tune, I really don't think you did.

 

word. I currently HAVE a GIAC tune. guess what. I'm getting a RMW tune, cause not only do they work, but they get the best gains (per $ spent) that ANY "tuner" is getting. (scratch that per $ spent, its just the biggest gains period!)

There is something to be said about a tuner that not only posts what hes doing, but he backs it up with real world #'s and Tons of VERY satisfied customers! Trust me that when he does my tune, I want my GIAC tune to be looked at, cause if there are just DSC and rev limits changed, I will be raising HELL!

That is not what I paid for, and not what I was told I was paying for.

 

Thanks everyone for the information. Jan, I'll look forward to the release of a tune for my R56. Hope I'll be one of your first customers and that you'll be able to tune the R56 on your next visit to Seattle.

Cheers!

 

Can we try and keep this to What is considered a tune and not an RMW ad please.

I know Jan, and I've had the pleasure of having him work with my car multiple times optimizing things as he's learned and I've made changes. It's my belief that what Jan and others with same tool can do is a true tune for our cars.

I also think we are all learning more about what it takes to tune these cars properly. The canned tunes that were previously pervasive are being proven to be piddling for our perforce needs.

 

thanks for the kind words Nate but many people own paint brushes too and that doesn't mean they can paint

 

Hey, I was told I painted a mean bedroom by my wife..............

 

The GIAC tune is not just a rev limit bump and a DSC tweak, it is actually pretty aggressive. Jan tuned my wifes MINI with the GIAC and he commented on how aggressive it was. It may have been his first GIAC car because it was really frustrating him for awhile.

 

I for one am scared of any and all "canned" tunes. If you cannot have your plug and play tuned specifically for your car on a dyno it's my opinion that your asking for it. You just have no idea what a plug and play is really doing to your specific automobile.

A tune in my opinion is something that remaps your A/F trim, timing, rev limiter etc. I wouldn't consider raising the rev limiter and DSC parameters a tune.

With a purchased plug and play chip, there is no way to tell what is actually on it unless its read and dyno'd. The cool thing about Jan's tune is your standing right there. You know what was on the car to start with. Then you can watch him make changes to the maps and timing. Very cool stuff and you know exactly what your getting.

 

Thumbs up to Jan for letting everyone be involved in the process. My tuner made me wait in the lobby

 

I say take advantage of Jan's RMW tune while he's here and willing to tune! I have never enjoyed my car this much There is a one in a million chance you can get the right tune from a can.

 

<Not another Jan commercial>

I'm your average can't turn a wrench, don't read all the posts, a car's made to be driven so let's go find red line kind of guy.

I'm getting a Jan tune at the NC event in July. I have an M7 16%, Helix CAI, and Invidia exhaust, and getting Dan at Grassroots to put in a set of Helix 380cc injectors, (see can't turn a wrench).

I'll post here after the tune. It'll be a good testimony b/c I'm not a zealot, or expert, just a guy looking for TQ and driveability. With the current mods and no tune the pedal on the right has become an on/off switch, and I do have to behave sometimes, like commuting and when Leos are near, the Invidia and RSD drowns out passenger complaints. ;-)

 

Thank you Jan for outlining what you tune. Seems to be a problem for others!

There are over 20 companies out there that offering tunes for Mini's. Out of those only 35% are willing to tell you what they are tuning. Which leads me to believe if you can't put it in writing it does not exist.

John

 

correct.

I look back when I joined NAM - my choices were MTH or GIAC. Its what was available and we went with that. In my case GIAC. While I felt the car ran better, once I got a custom tune there was no comparison.

Jan and others have not only brought us performance enhancing tunes but have also given us affordable tuning solutions. applause.

 

This is not a JAN 'ad' I'm posting.

I was at the RMW session last week and was excited to see Jan work on my friend's car. I wish I would've brought my own cars. (I couldn't for a couple reasons)

The analogy regarding a true tune, is that it was like he was tuning an instrument. If I wasn't impressed I would've said so, here.... But I certainly was. He was a damn nice guy too!

If you have ever tuned a guitar or piano, you know what a true "tune" for a car should be. With a stringed unstrument, you have to twist, strum, listen, twist, strum, listen....

You have to react to what each instrument that you tune is telling you. You might need a quarter turn on the E string key on one guitar, and 1/3 on another E string on a different guitar.

If you always put only three and a half turns on the E string (a 'canned' tune), on ALL guitars you tune.... take a guess as to whether they all sound right at the end.

You just might over torque it and snap the string because you didn't react to what the guitar is telling you.

Cars are a bit like that.

 

For anyone that's interested in the information we have attained from Evotech and Dimsport on this tuning debate here is the link to PS MINI where we posted the information: PS MINI Thread

Our comments are near the bottom of page 7 and 8

Call us if you have any questions

 

 

Need more than one box for that thread...

 

Notice that it was locked. PSMINI decided to lock it and then let George get in the last word w/o being able to question him about anything in the email. Nor being able to again dispute his thinly veiled accusation about the legitimacy of Jan getting the Dimsport software. I PM'd the forum mod and he refused to post my rebuttal. I have included my rebuttal here......

I just noticed that you allowed George to post on the locked thread. He made another accusation about Jan's use of the software from Dimsport. I had explained this relationship in an earlier post, but he is still trying to stir the pot.

Would you add my explanation of how he got the software to the thread?

Actually I totally disagree with you. George seems to think I have a personal grudge against him. This is absolutely untrue. I have no vendetta or agenda against him or MM. All I, as many others did, was call into question the validity of the Evotech product that he sold.

What I don't like is the posting of misinformation, accusations, and half-truths. And his last post has all three. I would've like to have seen you edit the post so that only facts that pertain to the problem were posted. But unfortunately that isn't the case. He states that there is some kind of problem with Jan at RMW and Dimsport, when in fact his purchase of the software is entirely above board and has been explained by me. Jan set up a different company than RMW for his tuning business. If George had simply verified this info with Jan and contacted Dimsport there would be no question as to the legality of Jan owning and using the software.

Secondly, the email from Dimsport doesn't state conclusively that their software doesn't read the mods from an Evotech tune, only that under certain conditions is it possible. Without having any definitive answer from Evotech as to what parameters are changed with their tune we have no way of knowing whether or not the Dimsport software is capable of detecting those changes. If you were to talk to anyone that has tuning experience, you would find out that there aren't that many different parameters that can be changed to affect power and torque. It would be hard to verify that a tune actually happened unless we knew what parameters were changed. We wouldn't need to know how it was changed, just that some particular parameter was changed.

I tried to get George to settle any differences between us by PM on NAM, but he refused to do it by email or PM, instead demanding that I cal him. I told him that I didn't feel it was necessary for me to call him because he seems to have the problem with me. Nowhere on here or on NAM do I accuse George or MM of any wrong doing during any of this. My posts have always been directed toward Evotech. At this point I want nothing more to do with George. He was insulting and disrespectful. I don't feel that I would be in any position to comment on what would need to be done with the Evotech problem. That is something the vendors need to do. I myself do not have the product and don't feel that I have any reason to have any input as to the solution. My beef is mainly with the misinformation that he posts about other vendors and the way he has handled the problem. If he is allowed to continue posting about a vendor he has no personal knowledge of, I feel that because I do have personal experience with that vendor that I be allowed to rebut any or all of his posts if I feel he has posted any misinformation.

All this post did was allow George to muddy the waters a bit more.

 

I have not been impressed with the customer service from MM.

 

I really don't want this to become a "bash MM" thread, rather I would like to see more debate over how to make sure this doesn't happen again and to make sure that vendors are held accountable for their claims and accusations.

 

Hey folks,
If it means anything to anyone, I'm in the small but growing group of people that feel, thru due diligence, concern, and good, old fashioned customer service, that MM is doing a great job in the way of producing the information to back up what products and services they provide. A concern was brought up by a lot of us based on two different types of tune entities. The information is there and I hope you are calling, asking, and learning more every day whatever product you choose or chosen-Its not about the person-. I took it upon myself to get more information by asking questions of the manufacturer, and I'm still asking, much to their dismay I'm sure- I saw something I really liked in dyno tuning, that is a fact.-the person is getting direct feedback, and changes can be made, that was really impressive, regardless of the type of tuning software, and I thought Jan was cool to talk to, he loves it, just like George and you and me. What I'm finding out is I'm getting information on the product I purchased from the company I purchased it from-when I asked for it, and building a better vendor /customer relationship in the journey. I am really looking forward to having the EVOTECH people dyno test my car. So, Mr. Bend, really, no offence, but you've got the answers in front of you, look for them, call them, all the companies and take satisfaction in your discovery ,in what you feel is the best for you.The rest seems like too much whining, and drama. Perhaps, look hard, that's the real reason for the lockdown of these threads

Enjoy the sunshine,
Safetysean aka Keep Right