A tune, a canned tune, or a can of tuna are all good - just different.

 

Yes Sir-I'm a fan of Albacore with a little mayo and hotsauce, on hearty bread- Cha-Cha, but right now enjoyoing tri-tip and barley pops! Thanks, Mr. Clemons-see you in the rear view
Sean

 

My problem as I have stated before is not with the vendor, but with the possible lack of any real changes being made by the tune. And then allowing a vendor to post dubious claims w/o the benefit of any peer review. Just because Dimsport says their software doesn't open all of the possible files on an ECU doesn't mean that the pertinent files aren't opened. How many possible functions of the ECU actually have anything to do with tuning? And until we get some definitive answers from Evotech we will never know what areas of the ECU they do change.

 

Okay I am really tired of asking the same question and not getting an answer. So I will ask agian and include pictures.

So at the bottom of the page you will find a overall results list of the Dyno Day that PS Mini did back at the first of May. You will note that Scoop is at the bottom of the list at a 155 WHP and 144 torque. Scoop had a seriously worn out supercharger belt which caused this problem. Scoops numbers to date with a new belt and a Jan tune are as follows.
NAM User: scoop

My configuration:
2004 MCS
Alta CAI
Alta Sportone exhaust
Alta 15% pulley
Stock injectors
Stock plugs

Initial pull:
155.4 hp @6700 (May 2007 at PSMINI club event)
150 torque @ 4000 (May 2007 at PSMINI club event)

Jan Tune event pull
185.8 hp @ 6900 (6/20)
171.3 torque @ 3854 (6/20)

Final pull
198.8 hp @ 7200 (later adjusted to 196.2 with better A/F balance)
173.2 torque @ 4027

Total gain
Horsepower: 16.9%
Torque: 1.9%

Okay as you look at the bottom of the chart you will find 3 Mini's with EvoTech Tuning and other Mods pulling stock numbers. The question I have asked over and over is why are these 3 cars are pulling stock numbers. This along with Pure 13 and Safety Sean are all showing what I would call less then acceptable number in relationship to green backs forked out.

Now it is nice to know that Dimsport can't read EvoTech DAHHHHHHH it is called it is called security coding. But both programs can read BMW's EUC and if you know what the stock program looks like you can see that the files have been changed. You can't read those files unless you have the same program. Further more if the file for the DSC has been changed I doubt likely that fuel pressures are in that file or that if the rev limit files change the timing. If you want to play word games I had my Mini ECU tuned because I went down and had the driving light function turned on at Mini. What we are taking about is a performance tune and what is involved in that process.

In closing I have asked for going on 2 months why these 3 cars did not perform as claimed. I do not care to here that it is because of global warming, bad gas, flywheel numbers not whp, that it is an automatic, or even because the ambient air temp and no fans, none of this accounts for 30 HP. Pure 13 and Boomer raise a question as in what I am I paying for and as consumers we have a right to know. To date we have only had one company state what they tune and that was done with in 3 hour of the first post.

John

 

It's not clear to me why you are calling the numbers near the bottom of the chart "stock numbers".

155 whp plus 15% losses in the drivetrain is about 181 in the engine HP that MINI quotes for an S (165-168 depending on year).

15% losses would make stock power about 141-143 HP at the wheels, so even with whatever is costing power on Paul and Scoop's cars, they are still getting 12-15HP over stock.

I think it is clear at this point that EVOTech is tuning the cars as they claim, but that Jan doesn't understand what he's looking at when he tries to use Dimsoft software to interpret EVOtech code. This is software folks, and tables and code get moved around.

 

The 12-15 hp is the pulley, intake and exhaust.

 

Well if Evotech is tuning to their claims, then based on those chart results, the factory map kicks ***. Heck, my car pulled 184hp with just a pulley. Going by your 15% drivetrain loss correction factor, that's roughly 216hp, equalling the MM Stage 2 kit for $1900 less.

But the question remains, people are spending big bucks on these performance packages but when dynoed against others on the same day, same dyno, same fan blowing at the radiator, etc., the numbers fall short. Sure, factors like gas, engine temperature at time of pull, ambient temperature, different driver stepping on the gas, phase of moon, etc... may cause part of the variation, but when you have cars with less mods literally blow away those numbers, something is terribly wrong. The chart shows THREE examples of Evotech cars falling short. So far, there have been no answers, just excuses.

 

I'd call it more likely that the 12-15 HP is the pulley, intake and cat-back plus the tune, and minus whatever is costing a bunch of power - which could be a lot of things.

What has become clear is that this whole fuss has been about bad information - that the original cars with the putative issue do indeed have Evotech tuning applied, and that an ill-chosen comment by Jan, apparently made from ignorance, has been widely misinterpreted as an accusation of fraud by Evotech.

The ain't-it-awful boys have certainly had a field day, but it's time to hang it up on this non-issue, IMHO...

 

searocko, if your car showed 184 WHP on a dyno with just a pulley, that dyno needs to be calibrated, as it's reading way too high - that's simply not possible.

 

Then going by that logic, everyone's number is inflated. We all dynoed on the SAME dyno, on the SAME day! Did you somehow miss that point??

 

Well, there is one really easy way to put this all to rest. Take any of the evotech cars that have an evotech tune, go run them on the dyno, reflash them back to stock and run them again. Then there will be definitive data for everyone to see what the merits of the evotech flash are.

Any takers? I bet with as heated as this is there would be enough people willing to pony up money to make this happen in a heartbeat.

 

Uncalibrated dynamometers are useful for comparing before and after changes or between cars on the same day. Period.

The absolute numbers that come out are totally meaningless, unless the device is calibrated and certified recently, and even then, only if temperature, barometric pressure, and the heat-soak state of the car are both controlled and stated.

That's why it is so entertaining to see people (and writers at Road & Track, Car & Driver, etc.) rhapsodizing about dyno numbers...

My home stereo amp puts out 1600 watts per channel, as another example of a comparable and utterly meaningless figure.

 

Unless you're talking about a MCSa you're about 5% too high. MINI 6-Speeds generally have between 9 and 11% drivetrain loss based on the dyno testing I've seen of stock cars.

And again, like others have said, 12-15 whp is coming from a pulley, not the tune.

 

Do you speak from experience? I've seen hundreds of dyno sheets over the years, some stock cars dyno with 165 whp, some at 140 whp... This isn't a race engine. The tolerances are wide and varied. There's a reason that some people dyno with the same mods and get 10-15 whp differences.

And then as Rocko said, if the dyno was reading artificially high, then the Evotech cars are even worse off (take 10-15 HP from them).

He has a strong car, lots of people do.

For what it's worth, the 05-06's (From what I've seen at least) appear to be better built than the 02-04 motors. The coated SC's help quite a bit with heat, and the internal tolerances are tighter.

 

My suggestion has nothing to do with uncalibrated dynos or ultimate numbers. The runs would be ten minutes apart(as much time as needed to re-flash) on the same dyno(we're looking at deltas only) same day. Again, we will see very quickly the merits of the evotech tune.

As for people rhapsodizing about dyno numbers, until you come up with a better, standardized solution for comparing performance data, we are stuck with what we have. Without dynos, you'd be left with 1/4 times, lap times, and top speed data. I think the dyno data is a nice addition if not perfect.

 

Agreed! That'd be an interesting comparison.

Likewise, we can have some of the other popular choices available (MTH, GIAC, RMW) for testing.

 

As I expected very little positive input or answers into what different tuning companies tune in your EUC. Just spin and blame.

Thank you SeaRocko

Big Howe your right that is what should be done with the EvoTech cars. But there should be no expense.

Thanks Rusty Boy, yes depending on the build and if World Cup is on the stock pulls range between 140 to 165

 

actually I spent 2 hrs going through the full eprom of the EVOTECH map

there are other changes but none in the MAIN TIMING map or THE MAIN FUELING..... which would explain why the HP wasn't there.

I have downloaded earlier tunes of EVOTECH from other unhappy people and I can tell you those maps had major timing advances in the main map. Why did they go away from using the MAIN TIMING AND FUELING MAPS?

 

Interesting information, Thanks Jan

Old Rick I would like to know what you think of this page and it addressing HP increases from the pulley alone?

http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...PROD&ProdID=10

Thank You
John

 

So my 195hp with a 15%, cai, one-ball and 380's is just unpossible !!

 

OldRick speaks from no experience at all, just a MM fan.

 

And you know this how..............

I don't remember seeing you at the tuning party looking over Jans shoulder at the tables.

Please refrain from posting anymore accusatory remarks w/o any evidence to back them up. Oh wait......this is normal for you.

 

A view from the sidelines.

I've read the entire thread both here and on PSI MINI.

Lets remember the question is What is Considered a Tune? It's not is there an Evotech issue. It's not whether or not RMW is the listed licensee of the Dimsport software. Tossing this stuff into this mix is only obfuscating the real question.

To date ONLY Jan has supplied an answer to What is Considered a Tune?

To the rest of you....lets keep this back on the question. Unless you have something to add as to What is Considered a Tune? there is nothing to say here.

My own opinion....

We have a people questioning if their software was changed for the better and how. We can't ask RMW, MTH, GIAC or any others that sell a "tune" to divulge what are the actual numbers changed on the chip, they supposedly figured out what does and does not work. May as well ask Coke for the recipe. The answer will be the same. What we are asking and only RMW has responded is What is Considered a Tune? Along with that how can we quantify that it has been completed as advertised.

We are seeing discrepancies between advertised results and real world results. No one selling these tunes has tried to explain these discrepancies but seem to riding on the backs of others to point out flaws elsewhere.

I'm turning this thread around and putting the onus on all the interested vendors when I ask again What is Considered a Tune?

The bickering between parties needs to stop. ScottInBend, we all can go back over old posts by yourself to see you and Old Rick have issues. Fine, have those issues, not on my watch please.

Another issue that troubles me.

Dimsport states that they can't see the changes made by EvoTech. Now correct me if I am wrong but the software is comprised of various values placed in various folders. If one need to change the fuel trim at WOT then would there not be a central location where that data is held. If such data is encrypted on the chip and can only be read by the EvoTech software for the changes that EvoTech made how can the data be read by the MINI ECU. Wouldn't that need to be in format that MINI uses, and then wouldn't Dimsport's software be able to read that same MINI standard. My own thought is Dimsport was being less than forthwith in how things are done in a possible effort to protect their own changes from being easily copied by the competition.

 

 

Well put Gnatster. Here are 2 links and examples as to what we are looking for. I am not a fan for these two items nor do I even know if they work they just provide info as to what they are suppose to do.
BBR-GTI
http://www.morego.co.uk/bbr-gti/StarChip.php
GTT
http://www.gtt.uk.com/parts.asp

And of course like Jan stated at the beginning.

I will also add AmD
http://www.amdtechnik.com/technical.remap.cfm

John