Drivetrain Alta's CAI install
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 1
From: Sacramento, Ca
ummmmmm...buy the Alta one...makes the car sound awesome, adds good power, looks cool under the hood, and don't have to worry about check engine light coming up.
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
From: Hillsboro, Oregon
Firebolt: I may be missing the poke but let me know if I can help you with your decision. But you could just choose based on the alphabet!?! Happy to help if I can! Thanks for considering ALTA!
unexpectederror: ?
Thanks guys!
Adam@altaminiperformance.com
unexpectederror: ?
Thanks guys!
Adam@altaminiperformance.com
)
I really like that you can keep it quiet during mellow driving feel like you're in a race car when you get aggressive.
Back to your request, I'll try to get high quality sound clips recorded this weekend to share.
Adam was right, I LOVE IT!
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
From: Hillsboro, Oregon
no it's not sealed off but the fresh air inlet pipe delivers right below the Alta intake and Alta also recommends removing the black plastic grille attached to the scoop to allow more fresh air flowing right at the filter. It is simple and allows very high-airflow. A few other manufacturers are starting to come out with something more like what you mean but at a much higher pricepoint.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 1
From: Ay Bee Cue, NM
no it's not sealed off but the fresh air inlet pipe delivers right below the Alta intake and Alta also recommends removing the black plastic grille attached to the scoop to allow more fresh air flowing right at the filter. It is simple and allows very high-airflow. A few other manufacturers are starting to come out with something more like what you mean but at a much higher pricepoint.
Yeah, based on THIS POST from THIS THREAD, there is no way I am totally removing the plastic grille from my hood scoop, regardless of how much power Alta says I'll be missing out on.
Higher underhood pressure caused by removing the grille completely = decreased efficiancy of the radiator and intercooler. No thanks!
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
From: Hillsboro, Oregon
Oh boy! It makes FAR more sense that it was done to release heat and keep aesthetics, than it is that it was needed to maintain cooling efficiency. I will have Jeff review that info, but it seems EXTREMELY unlikely!
adam@altaminiperformance.com
adam@altaminiperformance.com
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 1
From: Ay Bee Cue, NM
Oh boy! It makes FAR more sense that it was done to release heat and keep aesthetics, than it is that it was needed to maintain cooling efficiency. I will have Jeff review that info, but it seems EXTREMELY unlikely!
adam@altaminiperformance.com
adam@altaminiperformance.com
But if there was nothing to the argument I posted links to, why wouldn't BMW have just drilled out ALL the holes? There has got to be a reason they only opened half of them. Don't ya think?
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
From: Hillsboro, Oregon
Aesthetics, and mfring costs. They would do the LEAST amount of change to both yet solve the issue with cooking the hood scoops. Also, note there has been no recall or TSB (that I am aware off. I own an early fully blocked, and later partially blocked car, should have been alerted to that recall etc.)
Can't someone jsut call an engineer at BMW and find out?
Can't someone jsut call an engineer at BMW and find out?
Manufacturer
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 995
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
1. What was their pressure changes?? I would love to know the difference before and after. If you read its base on hypothosizing about changes in pressure and that it effects cooling.
2. Behind the scoop is the engine, and very very very large holes behind the engine, and to the side. How can a small 1.5"x8" hole at any air flow create pressure (that would affect anything) with these large holes around the engine. They mention "orifices", well it takes 2 of these to make pressure. The one in and the one out. The out orifice is at least 20 times bigger than the scoop (in, orifice)
3. Aren't they arguing about not buy their own intake with a scoop, to help keep things from melting under the hood???
4. Using basic logic, BMW opened up the scoop to get some more air flow through the engine bay. So what!! Its not like they put a snow shovel on the hood to collect the air. Never seen that before (WRX's) on cars that had Top Mounted Intercoolers with them removed for Front Mounted Intercoolers. There are plenty of these cars out there at the track with ZERO cooling(intercooler or radiator) issues or over increased pressure issues. This example is much more extreme than the Mini.
5. I would hypothosize that opening the scoop might help create a slight ventulli effect to help get air around the engine to help it cool better. One guy mentions "It was entirely because the under hood temperatures were sky rocketing and may prematurely wear out some components and/or damage the bonnet finish." Since the scoop is behind the turbo not in front (the only part that could hurt the paint), it would create this ventulli effect to help get more around the engine to help keep things cooler.
6. With out measuring, i would again hypothosize that the openging of the front of the car (plus the hood scoop) is still smaller than the opening behind and around the engine where the air exits out the bottom of the car. With this said, if there isn't this huge restriction creating pressure build up under the hood, then there is no way that the little scoop is stealing from the air flowing through the rad and intercooler. At least enough pressure to effect cooling.
7. We are not going to argue about whos intake is better, even though it seems no one has been able to make more HP or even show more HP gained. While we could critique their part and say why ours is better/different, it just takes simple, but scientifically done correct, runs on the dyno. Which we did before we even started selling the parts. So we proved our part a long time ago!
8. Those concerned with water shouldn't worry at all. Our mule has lots of rainy Oregon weather, and not to mention all the weather it saw on the way to the Dragon. Or just think of it like free water injection!
To recap.
We have proven the scoop being removed gives our intake get a fresh shot of ambient temp. DONE! This makes up about 3-4WHP over just the filter/box, and it getting underhood temps.
We originally were going to make an intake that untilized the scoop. But when we were testing, before we even got to making a shroud to capture this air, we found the scoop being removed worked perfectly to provide ambient temp. So there is ZERO need to add additional cost and complexity to make a shroud. While it looks cool, we felt it wasn't worth the added cost. Nor was it worth the added cost to make a box that COULD use a future scoop, as this would also limit some of the benifit of the open filter restrictiveness, or lack there of.
Also our testing was done on the dyno (not very good air flow through the scoop compared to driving on the road) and we never saw it raise a few degrees higher than ambient(expect when the fans turned off). Also the nice square dirt mark on our filter with a 3000 mile trip (going 60-90MPH) proves it works.
Even with the scoop blocked (and the 20-40 degrees above ambient filter temp we saw with filter blocked) the HP differnce was on a few HP. That is with 40 degrees hotter air!! So obviously the hotter air doesn't effect it much. This is because the ECU uses the air temp sensors in the boost tubes (after IC) to change fuel and timing.
We proved our intake with lots of dyno time, lots of data from our Innovate DL32 and temp sensors, and we feel it is done the best to suite the needs of most customers. We say this because there is always someone who wants something different. So all we can do is prove how our part works, and give people the data to make their own decision.
2. Behind the scoop is the engine, and very very very large holes behind the engine, and to the side. How can a small 1.5"x8" hole at any air flow create pressure (that would affect anything) with these large holes around the engine. They mention "orifices", well it takes 2 of these to make pressure. The one in and the one out. The out orifice is at least 20 times bigger than the scoop (in, orifice)
3. Aren't they arguing about not buy their own intake with a scoop, to help keep things from melting under the hood???
4. Using basic logic, BMW opened up the scoop to get some more air flow through the engine bay. So what!! Its not like they put a snow shovel on the hood to collect the air. Never seen that before (WRX's) on cars that had Top Mounted Intercoolers with them removed for Front Mounted Intercoolers. There are plenty of these cars out there at the track with ZERO cooling(intercooler or radiator) issues or over increased pressure issues. This example is much more extreme than the Mini.
5. I would hypothosize that opening the scoop might help create a slight ventulli effect to help get air around the engine to help it cool better. One guy mentions "It was entirely because the under hood temperatures were sky rocketing and may prematurely wear out some components and/or damage the bonnet finish." Since the scoop is behind the turbo not in front (the only part that could hurt the paint), it would create this ventulli effect to help get more around the engine to help keep things cooler.
6. With out measuring, i would again hypothosize that the openging of the front of the car (plus the hood scoop) is still smaller than the opening behind and around the engine where the air exits out the bottom of the car. With this said, if there isn't this huge restriction creating pressure build up under the hood, then there is no way that the little scoop is stealing from the air flowing through the rad and intercooler. At least enough pressure to effect cooling.
7. We are not going to argue about whos intake is better, even though it seems no one has been able to make more HP or even show more HP gained. While we could critique their part and say why ours is better/different, it just takes simple, but scientifically done correct, runs on the dyno. Which we did before we even started selling the parts. So we proved our part a long time ago!
8. Those concerned with water shouldn't worry at all. Our mule has lots of rainy Oregon weather, and not to mention all the weather it saw on the way to the Dragon. Or just think of it like free water injection!
To recap.
We have proven the scoop being removed gives our intake get a fresh shot of ambient temp. DONE! This makes up about 3-4WHP over just the filter/box, and it getting underhood temps.
We originally were going to make an intake that untilized the scoop. But when we were testing, before we even got to making a shroud to capture this air, we found the scoop being removed worked perfectly to provide ambient temp. So there is ZERO need to add additional cost and complexity to make a shroud. While it looks cool, we felt it wasn't worth the added cost. Nor was it worth the added cost to make a box that COULD use a future scoop, as this would also limit some of the benifit of the open filter restrictiveness, or lack there of.
Also our testing was done on the dyno (not very good air flow through the scoop compared to driving on the road) and we never saw it raise a few degrees higher than ambient(expect when the fans turned off). Also the nice square dirt mark on our filter with a 3000 mile trip (going 60-90MPH) proves it works.
Even with the scoop blocked (and the 20-40 degrees above ambient filter temp we saw with filter blocked) the HP differnce was on a few HP. That is with 40 degrees hotter air!! So obviously the hotter air doesn't effect it much. This is because the ECU uses the air temp sensors in the boost tubes (after IC) to change fuel and timing.
We proved our intake with lots of dyno time, lots of data from our Innovate DL32 and temp sensors, and we feel it is done the best to suite the needs of most customers. We say this because there is always someone who wants something different. So all we can do is prove how our part works, and give people the data to make their own decision.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 1
From: Ay Bee Cue, NM
Well said Jeff.
I have already decided on (and already ordered) Alta's intake and exhaust. I just wasn't convinced that dremeling out the scoop grille, or removing it completely was entirely necessary. We'll see what I end up doing once JSC Speed gets your stuff back in stock and ships out my order!
I have already decided on (and already ordered) Alta's intake and exhaust. I just wasn't convinced that dremeling out the scoop grille, or removing it completely was entirely necessary. We'll see what I end up doing once JSC Speed gets your stuff back in stock and ships out my order!
5th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,004
Likes: 0
From: Boston, MA
Just got mine... took about 30 minutes or so. Pretty painless (although the washers didn't fit). I'll dig out the camera and take some pics later!
My first impressions:
The CAI + Turbo Inlet Hose are a great combo!
Definite increase in power (although the roads are wet and DSC can't keep up
)
Very sporty turbo noise (more than I expected, but sounds great!)
I can't wait till tomorrow when I really get to test it out!
My first impressions:
The CAI + Turbo Inlet Hose are a great combo!
Definite increase in power (although the roads are wet and DSC can't keep up
)Very sporty turbo noise (more than I expected, but sounds great!)
I can't wait till tomorrow when I really get to test it out!
Last edited by chili_red07; Nov 6, 2007 at 03:22 PM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
From: Hillsboro, Oregon
What happened on the washers? Let me know, so if there is a packaging error I can address is ASAP! Sorry for ANY inconvenience!
adam@altaminiperformance.com
adam@altaminiperformance.com
5th Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,004
Likes: 0
From: Boston, MA
The (large) washers used to secure the shroud to the intake manifold were too small for the bolt to fit through. Of course I didn't realize this until I went to attach the shroud, so I wasn't going anywhere (thank God I found some washers in the garage!)
Last edited by chili_red07; Nov 6, 2007 at 08:35 PM.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 1
From: Ay Bee Cue, NM
Might want to get your quality control guys on that Adam. I meant to call you the other day and let you know about it, and I totally forgot.
I am on it! I alerted the packaging manager tonight. will update for all shipments leaving after tomorrow! Will also reprimand the appropriate offender in the AM!
How can the warehouse do that to my good friends and clients here on NAM!!!!!
MY APOLOGIES!
How can the warehouse do that to my good friends and clients here on NAM!!!!!
MY APOLOGIES!
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 1
From: Ay Bee Cue, NM
No worries Adam! Nothing a little gentle drilling and a pair of vice grips couldn't handle!
Good to know that future customers won't have to go through the hassle though. Good job man!
BTW, did ya see the pics I put up of Winston with his new toys? If not, check him out!
Good to know that future customers won't have to go through the hassle though. Good job man!
BTW, did ya see the pics I put up of Winston with his new toys? If not, check him out!
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: Albuquerque, NM
Aesthetics, and mfring costs. They would do the LEAST amount of change to both yet solve the issue with cooking the hood scoops. Also, note there has been no recall or TSB (that I am aware off. I own an early fully blocked, and later partially blocked car, should have been alerted to that recall etc.)
Can't someone just call an engineer at BMW and find out?
Can't someone just call an engineer at BMW and find out?
Yes! I think Gabe at MotoringFile has contacts that could answer this question. They might be reluctant to answer given that they have not released a TSB about changing the scoop, but it's worth a shot.
gl
Adam,
When installing the CAI, I first put the smaller washers on the bottom of the shroud holding bolts and they would just sink into those rubber grommets as I tightened them. I then realized there were two larger washers in the Alta package as well and switched to those (using the smaller washers for the inside of the CAI shroud). Unless the bigger washers were left out of some recent shipments, I think pointing this out in the installation manual might clear up the confusion. Just an idea... maybe the wrong one... you guys are doing a great job!
When installing the CAI, I first put the smaller washers on the bottom of the shroud holding bolts and they would just sink into those rubber grommets as I tightened them. I then realized there were two larger washers in the Alta package as well and switched to those (using the smaller washers for the inside of the CAI shroud). Unless the bigger washers were left out of some recent shipments, I think pointing this out in the installation manual might clear up the confusion. Just an idea... maybe the wrong one... you guys are doing a great job!
