Watkins Glen / Boston BMWCCA / Sept 27-28, 2006
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6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,021
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From: Burlington, VT
Watkins Glen / Boston BMWCCA / Sept 27-28, 2006
Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...57721908&hl=en
Watkins Glen, the big track, one that people have even heard of, and I drove it. :coolsq:
My goal for this summer was to get to as many different tracks as I could, after spending last summer driving only at New Hampshire International Speedway. So I signed up for events at Lime Rock, Mont Tremblant, NHIS (again), and Watkins Glen.
I was a bit nervous about The Glen, after all it's a pretty big, fast track with lots of armco (walls of gaurdrail material) all around it. Let me tell you, The Glen is big. Much bigger than NHIS, and much more "race track" feeling than Lime Rock and Mont Tremblant. The Glen really makes you feel like you're in the middle of a world class race track. Not that Lime Rock and Mont Tremblant aren't great tracks, but the dirt infield roads and paddock, and lack of garages and other infrastructure at those tracks make it feel different. The Glen is all paved, developed, helicopter landing zone, infield medical center, etc, etc - very serious.
So, what's it like to drive The Glen? Well, with a 3.4 mile long track and low turnout for the event, the first thing you notice is just how empty the track is. You can go for laps without seeing another car. It's very different from NHIS were you probably are passing or being passed at around half the passing zones on the track.
It's also pretty fast. The hills manage to keep the absolute top speeds down a bit in my Cooper. Once I kew I was going to make it through turn 1, I'd be full throttle until the braking zone for the busstop. I'd hit 90mph and shift from third to fourth between turns 2 and 3, then be stuck at 90mph up the hill until the exit of turn 4. The car would slowly creep up to 100mph and then be stuck there as I went up the hill on the back straight. I might have gotten close to 105mph, but that's about it.
But there were lots of spots where I'd be up to 90-90mph before braking for a turn (the top of third gear), and no use of second gear. Although I did try second one time in the toe of the boot (turn 7) because it's a 55mph or so turn with an uphill exit. But it wasn't much faster in second than it was in third.
I guess I should do a turn-by-turn...
Front straight - fourth gear at the end up to just over 100mph, brake going downhill for turn 1.
Turn 1 - lots of runoff room, fairly basic 90° right hander.
Turns 2-4 - the esses - full throttle uphill with plenty of armco nice and close. The faster cars had a bit more to worry about. My Cooper was no problem through there. Turn 3 is a bridge, so the armco gets really close to the track and there's a bit of a crest there. The fast cars would get pretty light at that point.
The back straight - fourth gear trying to accelerate up from 90mph on a slight uphill... not a lot of success in my car thanks to the hill.
The busstop isn't on the image I linked in, but it's a chicane to slow cars down at the end of the back straight. I never got it through there very fast, as I'm sure my car is capable of being much quicker through the busstop. But it was hard to get my eyes to turn away from the back straight and into the busstop - they were drawn to the long, straight expanse of pavement in front of me. The busstop was a third gear section for me.
Turn 5 - the carousel - a slight lift coming out of the busstop to get turned in to turn 5, then full gas through the sweeper which goes downhill a bit. Fun turn!
The little "chute" between 5 and 6 is downhill and I'd come very close to redlining third gear through there - 95mph or so.
Turn 6 - the laces - This is the turn that gave me the most trouble. Downhill, greater than 90° of turning, requires a late entry / apex, and not a lot of room to make a mistake. I always felt like I was going into this turn too fast, so I'd try to hold on to the brakes just a little longer. Which would make my car want to come around. My first hot lap, I did that with the DSC on. Later in the first day, I did it again with the DSC off. I did finally get better at it and stopped almost losing control. :D
Down the hill to the toe of the boot, again almost topping out third gear. The toe of the boot has a lot of camber, so it can be taken pretty quickly, but the exit is steeply uphill, and my car just doesn't accelerate uphill at around 60mph, as I've learned from "the bowl" at NHIS.
You crest the hill in the "sole" of the boot heading for the heel, again coming close to redline in third gear. I never did get the heel of the boot as quickly as I could
Out of the heel, uphill a bit, to turn 9 which is another really late, greater than 90° turn. It took me a long time to get even close to being late enough on this turn. You cannot see the exit of the turn when you are going into it because of the hill and the armco at the apex of the turn.
Turn 10 - the fast left - another really fun turn. A slight lift to turn in, then full gas and float out to the outside of the turn. Probably around 80-85mph.
Then a really short straight, almost topping out in third again, to turn 11. 11 is another turn I never really "got", I'm sure I could have been faster there. But screwing up the turn that leads onto the front straight, in front of everybody, is not something I want to do.
Of course there's all sorts of details left out of that lap, but it at least give an idea.
What were my two days there like?
Well, I knew going in that my front brake pads were not going to make it through the two days. The pad material was a little thicker than the backing plate thickness when I started - in other words, around 1/4" of pad material. I had me next set of brake pads with me, and the tools to change them...
The basic layout of the track was simple enough that it didn't take long at all to get up to speed, unlike Tremblant. I had studied the map and watched some video, and in the first session I wasn't lost at all on my first lap (unlike Tremblant) and by the third lap or so I had keyed in on which turns needed work and which were straightforward. I kept the DSC on for the first session, as I do at a new track. It never interfered when I didn't want it to, and it did help straighten the car out when I went into the laces (turn 6) with too much braking on my first hot lap.
One thing about a long track with lap times that are in the 3:00 range (for my car when I was still learning the track) is that you don't get a whole lot of laps in in a 20 minute session. Which means it takes a few more sessions to figure out those problem turns.
I kept the DSC on for session 2, and made some good progress. I did have another typical intermediate mistake where I was looking in my mirrors in a turn and almost drove off the track. I need to stop doing that.
For session three, I turned the DSC off... yet again I entered the laces (turn 6) with too much brake and had the back of the car start to come around. But, I saved it fairly quickly and kept on going. Towards the end of session three, I had the line through the track pretty well figured out, and very little brake pad left on the front of the car - maybe 1/8"
There wasn't enough time between sessions 3 and 4 for the brakes to cool down enough for me to change the pads, so I went out for session 4 with the intent of taking it slowly and working on the line - and getting through the difficult turns a little better. People who have done track driving before know what happens when you go out with the intention of taking things slowly - you wind up getting the line a little better, carrying more speed, and wind up actually going faster. Then you realize this and decide to just go ahead and drive hard.
With input from my instructor on when to let off the brakes, I had some of my fastest laps that session, until my brake pads were gone and I had to come in a few laps early. My instructor told me that I was using the brakes too much and needed to learn to brake less and enter the turns faster.
At the end of the day, I changed the brake pads (there was nothing left in terms of pad material) and headed back to the hotel.
Day 2:
I headed out in the first session with my instructor, who promptly said that I should drive by myself. So, I dropped him off and solo-ed! Of course, the new brake pads started giving off enough smoke to catch the attention of the corner workers, and I was called in to the pits. I explained the pads were new, and was let back out.
Session 2 was more solo driving, and tons of fun.
Then, the rain came. Lots of people didn't head out in the rain, but I wasn't about to let that stop me. They did require the students to have instructors back in the cars for the rain, though. I spent a few laps working on the rain line, and being held up by slower cars. Then I got some open track and got to play. With the DSC on, I was still taking things pretty conservatively. Very little sliding around. A little hydroplaning in a few spots where puddles were forming, and a little ABS action under braking, but still pretty sedate. Though driving around in a rainstorm at 90mph with the windows open is an experience. :D
Session 4 had more rain, even harder, and I had a new instructor as my original instructor was on a phone call. The new guy pulled the "scare the student into submission" routine, which I don't like, and that session wound up being a bit of a letdown. But I completely understand being nervous as an instructor getting into a new car on a track in the rain for the last session of the event.
What else happened while I was there?
An MCS lost its supercharger belt, but the HMS guys were able to install a new one in 20 minutes.
An M3 lost its motor.
Another 3-series got some light damage from hitting the wall.
An elise crashed with some pretty substantial body damage, trashed right front suspension, and the driver went to the hospital with a broken collarbone when the roof panel flew off and hit him in the head.
Sorry for the long post... video of the dry runs will be up soon. I haven't looked at the video from the rain yet, perhaps there will be a short video from that footage too.
Watkins Glen, the big track, one that people have even heard of, and I drove it. :coolsq:
My goal for this summer was to get to as many different tracks as I could, after spending last summer driving only at New Hampshire International Speedway. So I signed up for events at Lime Rock, Mont Tremblant, NHIS (again), and Watkins Glen.
I was a bit nervous about The Glen, after all it's a pretty big, fast track with lots of armco (walls of gaurdrail material) all around it. Let me tell you, The Glen is big. Much bigger than NHIS, and much more "race track" feeling than Lime Rock and Mont Tremblant. The Glen really makes you feel like you're in the middle of a world class race track. Not that Lime Rock and Mont Tremblant aren't great tracks, but the dirt infield roads and paddock, and lack of garages and other infrastructure at those tracks make it feel different. The Glen is all paved, developed, helicopter landing zone, infield medical center, etc, etc - very serious.
So, what's it like to drive The Glen? Well, with a 3.4 mile long track and low turnout for the event, the first thing you notice is just how empty the track is. You can go for laps without seeing another car. It's very different from NHIS were you probably are passing or being passed at around half the passing zones on the track.
It's also pretty fast. The hills manage to keep the absolute top speeds down a bit in my Cooper. Once I kew I was going to make it through turn 1, I'd be full throttle until the braking zone for the busstop. I'd hit 90mph and shift from third to fourth between turns 2 and 3, then be stuck at 90mph up the hill until the exit of turn 4. The car would slowly creep up to 100mph and then be stuck there as I went up the hill on the back straight. I might have gotten close to 105mph, but that's about it.
But there were lots of spots where I'd be up to 90-90mph before braking for a turn (the top of third gear), and no use of second gear. Although I did try second one time in the toe of the boot (turn 7) because it's a 55mph or so turn with an uphill exit. But it wasn't much faster in second than it was in third.
I guess I should do a turn-by-turn...
Front straight - fourth gear at the end up to just over 100mph, brake going downhill for turn 1.
Turn 1 - lots of runoff room, fairly basic 90° right hander.
Turns 2-4 - the esses - full throttle uphill with plenty of armco nice and close. The faster cars had a bit more to worry about. My Cooper was no problem through there. Turn 3 is a bridge, so the armco gets really close to the track and there's a bit of a crest there. The fast cars would get pretty light at that point.
The back straight - fourth gear trying to accelerate up from 90mph on a slight uphill... not a lot of success in my car thanks to the hill.
The busstop isn't on the image I linked in, but it's a chicane to slow cars down at the end of the back straight. I never got it through there very fast, as I'm sure my car is capable of being much quicker through the busstop. But it was hard to get my eyes to turn away from the back straight and into the busstop - they were drawn to the long, straight expanse of pavement in front of me. The busstop was a third gear section for me.
Turn 5 - the carousel - a slight lift coming out of the busstop to get turned in to turn 5, then full gas through the sweeper which goes downhill a bit. Fun turn!
The little "chute" between 5 and 6 is downhill and I'd come very close to redlining third gear through there - 95mph or so.
Turn 6 - the laces - This is the turn that gave me the most trouble. Downhill, greater than 90° of turning, requires a late entry / apex, and not a lot of room to make a mistake. I always felt like I was going into this turn too fast, so I'd try to hold on to the brakes just a little longer. Which would make my car want to come around. My first hot lap, I did that with the DSC on. Later in the first day, I did it again with the DSC off. I did finally get better at it and stopped almost losing control. :D
Down the hill to the toe of the boot, again almost topping out third gear. The toe of the boot has a lot of camber, so it can be taken pretty quickly, but the exit is steeply uphill, and my car just doesn't accelerate uphill at around 60mph, as I've learned from "the bowl" at NHIS.
You crest the hill in the "sole" of the boot heading for the heel, again coming close to redline in third gear. I never did get the heel of the boot as quickly as I could
Out of the heel, uphill a bit, to turn 9 which is another really late, greater than 90° turn. It took me a long time to get even close to being late enough on this turn. You cannot see the exit of the turn when you are going into it because of the hill and the armco at the apex of the turn.
Turn 10 - the fast left - another really fun turn. A slight lift to turn in, then full gas and float out to the outside of the turn. Probably around 80-85mph.
Then a really short straight, almost topping out in third again, to turn 11. 11 is another turn I never really "got", I'm sure I could have been faster there. But screwing up the turn that leads onto the front straight, in front of everybody, is not something I want to do.
Of course there's all sorts of details left out of that lap, but it at least give an idea.
What were my two days there like?
Well, I knew going in that my front brake pads were not going to make it through the two days. The pad material was a little thicker than the backing plate thickness when I started - in other words, around 1/4" of pad material. I had me next set of brake pads with me, and the tools to change them...
The basic layout of the track was simple enough that it didn't take long at all to get up to speed, unlike Tremblant. I had studied the map and watched some video, and in the first session I wasn't lost at all on my first lap (unlike Tremblant) and by the third lap or so I had keyed in on which turns needed work and which were straightforward. I kept the DSC on for the first session, as I do at a new track. It never interfered when I didn't want it to, and it did help straighten the car out when I went into the laces (turn 6) with too much braking on my first hot lap.
One thing about a long track with lap times that are in the 3:00 range (for my car when I was still learning the track) is that you don't get a whole lot of laps in in a 20 minute session. Which means it takes a few more sessions to figure out those problem turns.
I kept the DSC on for session 2, and made some good progress. I did have another typical intermediate mistake where I was looking in my mirrors in a turn and almost drove off the track. I need to stop doing that.
For session three, I turned the DSC off... yet again I entered the laces (turn 6) with too much brake and had the back of the car start to come around. But, I saved it fairly quickly and kept on going. Towards the end of session three, I had the line through the track pretty well figured out, and very little brake pad left on the front of the car - maybe 1/8"
There wasn't enough time between sessions 3 and 4 for the brakes to cool down enough for me to change the pads, so I went out for session 4 with the intent of taking it slowly and working on the line - and getting through the difficult turns a little better. People who have done track driving before know what happens when you go out with the intention of taking things slowly - you wind up getting the line a little better, carrying more speed, and wind up actually going faster. Then you realize this and decide to just go ahead and drive hard.
With input from my instructor on when to let off the brakes, I had some of my fastest laps that session, until my brake pads were gone and I had to come in a few laps early. My instructor told me that I was using the brakes too much and needed to learn to brake less and enter the turns faster.
At the end of the day, I changed the brake pads (there was nothing left in terms of pad material) and headed back to the hotel.
Day 2:
I headed out in the first session with my instructor, who promptly said that I should drive by myself. So, I dropped him off and solo-ed! Of course, the new brake pads started giving off enough smoke to catch the attention of the corner workers, and I was called in to the pits. I explained the pads were new, and was let back out.
Session 2 was more solo driving, and tons of fun.
Then, the rain came. Lots of people didn't head out in the rain, but I wasn't about to let that stop me. They did require the students to have instructors back in the cars for the rain, though. I spent a few laps working on the rain line, and being held up by slower cars. Then I got some open track and got to play. With the DSC on, I was still taking things pretty conservatively. Very little sliding around. A little hydroplaning in a few spots where puddles were forming, and a little ABS action under braking, but still pretty sedate. Though driving around in a rainstorm at 90mph with the windows open is an experience. :D
Session 4 had more rain, even harder, and I had a new instructor as my original instructor was on a phone call. The new guy pulled the "scare the student into submission" routine, which I don't like, and that session wound up being a bit of a letdown. But I completely understand being nervous as an instructor getting into a new car on a track in the rain for the last session of the event.
What else happened while I was there?
An MCS lost its supercharger belt, but the HMS guys were able to install a new one in 20 minutes.
An M3 lost its motor.
Another 3-series got some light damage from hitting the wall.
An elise crashed with some pretty substantial body damage, trashed right front suspension, and the driver went to the hospital with a broken collarbone when the roof panel flew off and hit him in the head.
Sorry for the long post... video of the dry runs will be up soon. I haven't looked at the video from the rain yet, perhaps there will be a short video from that footage too.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,021
Likes: 7
From: Burlington, VT
Oh yeah, I also went out as a passenger in Trevor's MCS and my instructor's e36 M3.
The MCS on PSS9s with monster brakes is quite the ride. Much more neutral feeling than my car in handling - I still think I might have too much rear bar, although I am starting to like it. But the PSS9 equipped car was so planted it was scary. R-compounds probably help, too. It was fun watching a Porsche Cayman S from a car length back
The M3, which still has a stock motor, was scary fast. Where I was topping out at 100mph or so, the M3 would pull to 120mph before running out of steam. The suspension on this M3 was also really good. I was the passenger for a 45 minute session, and by the end my neck was sore from the cornering loads. I was suprised to see that the M3 was not an oversteering monster, but actually understeered a fair bit when provoked. My instructor said that at the speed you're going at The Glen, there isn't enough torque available to get the back end to step out.
The MCS on PSS9s with monster brakes is quite the ride. Much more neutral feeling than my car in handling - I still think I might have too much rear bar, although I am starting to like it. But the PSS9 equipped car was so planted it was scary. R-compounds probably help, too. It was fun watching a Porsche Cayman S from a car length back
The M3, which still has a stock motor, was scary fast. Where I was topping out at 100mph or so, the M3 would pull to 120mph before running out of steam. The suspension on this M3 was also really good. I was the passenger for a 45 minute session, and by the end my neck was sore from the cornering loads.
I was suprised to see that the M3 was not an oversteering monster, but actually understeered a fair bit when provoked. My instructor said that at the speed you're going at The Glen, there isn't enough torque available to get the back end to step out.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,021
Likes: 7
From: Burlington, VT
Who? Where? Huh? 
The 6+ hour drive from northern Vermont to Watkins Glen was bad enough.
I take it you mean you were at the Glen?
The 6+ hour drive from northern Vermont to Watkins Glen was bad enough.
I take it you mean you were at the Glen?
4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
From: NW NC, USA, Earth
Thanks, snid, for taking the time to post your experiences and observations. I always enjoy your write-ups, and learn something to boot. Keep up the good work, and make us Cooper guys proud.
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6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,021
Likes: 7
From: Burlington, VT
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,021
Likes: 7
From: Burlington, VT
In his M3 (rear wheel drive) there isn't enough torque at 70mph+ to have the rear wheels break traction and cause the rear end of the car to break free like you can in a slower turn.
But, I'm not a rear wheel drive guy, so what do I know?
But, I'm not a rear wheel drive guy, so what do I know?
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Metro NY
I'm glad to see you enjoyed The Glen; it's my favorite track. I'm looking forward to the new pavement.
Oops: I wasn't there when you were there. I was there over the weekend for the race.
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