So... after reading a dozen pages documenting Meno's quest to get his VTEC Mini to drive straight (sorry, bro...), I'm toying with a new idea...

I had originally thought that one day, when Fiona finally barfs a rod or something, that I'd just give the car over to MiniTec for a full VTEC conversion... flip front, new suspension, etc.

But, now I'm wondering if I might not just use one of MiniMania's "top end" 1380 engines as a straight-up swap:



http://www.minimania.com/web/Item/13.../InvDetail.cfm

So, here's the math I'm coming up with:

CONS:

1. Costs $6K for the engine. They do have a "trade in' program though, so I might be able to reduce that a bit when they take Fiona's 1275.
2. Not a VTEC - this engine will "only" make 113 HP. "Only"...

PROS:

1. Drops right in, in theory. My Mini is a later model (a 92) so it should just mate right up. I might need some new, more powerful electrical bits, but I should even be able to re-use my carb, with re-jetting and a better air filter.
2. More "appropriate" - It's still an A-series engine, just a hopped-up, rebored A-series. On steroids.

Of course, with either, I'll need better suspension and a new exhaust, so that's a wash either way. And, from what I can tell, even if I go with a "mild" VTEC motor (which is cheaper than this $6K Mini engine), the other modifications will push the price up FAR beyond what it looks like this option would be.

Decisions... decisions...

Has anyone had first-hand experiences with this motor option, or know anyone that has? As much as I like the idea of a fancy-shmancy VTEC wowing people at shows, the high-end A-series option does have a powerful appeal...

Thanks in advance!

 

I really want to do a K-series convertion myself (bolting on a FI head from a BMW K1100 bike.) Not as involved as a full blown Vtec swap but more power and "coolness" than a straight A-series. Just sounds like fun.
Matt, you bringing Fiona to MOTD this year?

 

I like the idea of keeping it original, but I also would want more power than the stock 50 or so hp, my solution would be a supercharger. They make kits that will allow a straight bolt on of an Eaton 45 - the same one used on the R53's - although without the water pump complication. You can buy the kits in England for about $2k, or Moss carries them for about $3500.

They say a stock 50 hp 1275 will make right at 100 hp with the supercharger, I imagine a "built" 1380 with one would be closer to 140hp - thats as much as a D series Vtec makes, and doesn't require a whole different front end.

However, as you said, you'll also need to upgrade the cooling, brakes and suspension if you're gonna use that HP much. And I would want taller diff gears too......

The other cool thing about superchargers is that they add so much torque, they really makes the engine flexible and easy to drive.

 

I looked into buying a 1380 engine from MiniMania and another online distributor. I was _very_ surprised at the lack of interest they had about my potential multi-thousand $$$ purchase. My experience was that they simply wanted to sell me the power unit. I called Graham @ Heritage Garage about the same type of purchase and (long story short) I ended up giving him the business because he was asking all the right questions, trying to save me money and build me the power unit that I wanted, not just sell me something off the shelf. I would strongly recommend him. But I have no experience with buying one from MM so you may have a similar experience there.

FWIW, I had Heritage 'upgrade' my 1275 to a 1330, with the intent of taking it out to the racetrack a few times throughout the year. Specs were: 1275 A series block with GT7 longman head, 266 duration cam, rod change trans with 3.44:1 final drive, Quaife LSD, HIF6 carb, and a slew of other stuff. I have put 500 miles on it since the engine build and, aside from a cooling issue (it's already 100 degrees here in Arizona), the whole package is fantastic.

BUT ... it is an old car, and even though it's a rebuilt engine, it has an old car personality. There are special things you have to know about driving and maintaining one of these engines, which you most likely will never have to think about if you do the VTEC conversion. Maybe I'm WAY off base here but that's how I feel anyway.

Anyway, I'm rambling. PM me if you want more information. Good luck with whatever choice you end up making.

Check out HERE for a picture of my engine from Heritage Garage.

Jeff

 

ImagoX-

Good thread. We need something fun to talk about right now. Of course, I like the baby Vtec concept, being that I'm married to it. Nice thing about the D-series is that it is a modern engine that starts, starts, and starts again regardless the weather, temperature, etc. One downside to the Vtec concept is that the hybrid has unique problems unto itself, thus creating the need to become more self-sufficient mechanically. Granted, I've only put 3K miles on mine, but I do not carry tools! I do not load up the bed with extra parts. So far, it's reliable fun and the cornering is fab.

I don't know how reliable a "hopped up" 1380 is but keeping it all Brit has lots of appeal, too. You could actually start a thread on other classic mini forums and not get booed off stage.

What is the likely routine maintenance for a 1380?

 

See, I keep hearing from people with VTECs (even ones far more mild than Meno's fire-breather) that the Honda swap has a host of its OWN issues, from wonky electricals to less-than-pleasing steering issues... Basically, while the motor IS indeed a fuel-injected Honda power plant, it's still mated up to an old British car using what amounts to a custom-made frame. I'd expect such a chimera to have issues, and it sounds like they do.

My 1275 has 81K miles on the clock and starts in all weather - rain, sun, hot and cold. True, she's a dog, power-wise, but she's reliable, at least so far (knock on wood). I've been very happy with it, and I know I'd be absolutely THRILLED if the horsepower were doubled. Seeing as how I was thinking of the smallest, most mild VTEC engine (I use the car as a driver, keep in mind, not a racer), then the 1380 seems like a good option.

JeffM: great info on the Heritage garage kit - I'm in no way married to MiniMania as a supplier. Not to speak ill of them at all and I'm indebted to MM, since it was on their excellent classified forums that I found my car in the first place, but I usually can get things a bit cheaper on GBCarparts.com or 7Enterprises. MiniMania's long history of making race engines speaks in their favor, of course, but I believe Heritage has a similar history as well, and it's disturbing to learn that people have felt that they were disinterested in working with them to create the right engine. I'll be sure to check them out, thanks.

As for MOTD, I was planning on trailering Fiona down behind my CooperS, yes, but unfortunately I got laid off from my job of 12 years in February and have been looking for a job ever since. Seeing as how I've only had nibbles so far (the job situation, even in a fairly soft-hit community like Columbus still really stinks), I've decided to forgo big trips and expenses until I secure a new position somewhere. that means no MOTD OR the big MiniMeet East/West congregation that's happening in Minneapolis. DANG. I'll really miss you guys, though, and hopefully things will be back to normal next year (sigh)...

 

You should be pleased with a properly built 1380. I built my own and was happy with the results. 110+ HP is plenty in a Mini. The torque difference is phenominal. Minimania, Heritage Garage or 7 Enterprises all can fix you up a great motor unit.

 

I would go with Heritage or 7 if you're looking to do any engine purchase/work

Mini Mania aren't really set up for engine repair/work, they only really sell off the shelf items.

I would much rather buy an engine from someone who is going to build it to my specs/desires rather than someone who will simply ship me something that has probably been sitting on the shelf for awhile

 

Hey,
I have a K serices Vtec with Mini Tec kit AND a 1380 from Mini Mania.
Trust me! The 1380 is plenty if you do it up right. I have a weber 45 and lots of mods. It goes like a scalded ape.
The K20 is fun too but not as practical.

Its alot of money either way.

 

Agreed!

tti-
Does your 1380 handle better than the K? I had my D-series built with the goal of keeping the handling as close to street-modified classic mini as possible. Do the K's have great cornering capabilities or do they feel too heavy in the front? My pick-up is extremely fun to drive in the twisties--very neutral and stable. MT claims that my p'up weighs in at 1475, which is only 100 lbs more than OEM specs--and that includes tons of dynamat, A/C, leather interior & daily driver practical 130+ hp. I'm content, but it would be fun to have a 1380 version, too!

Can 1380's be built for practical use and fun? Or do they tend to be really tweaked and high maintenance?

I like MINIdave's idea of supercharging a 1275.

 

That is a completely terrifying idea...

 

Why terrifying?

They have bolt on kits in England that look very cleanly done and simple. As long as you use the right fuel, set the timing and jet the carb right (all of which is in the kit, including a new carb), it should not really do anything but add power on demand - simple. I'd do this before looking at a turbo, for example.

And it allows you to keep your original engine if you want. Seems a simple and easy way to almost double the HP for very little cost, and it's a weekend bolt on deal.

Heck, I think MiniMania even sells them.......

Here's a link to one supplier in England //http://www.jonspeedracing.co.uk/shop/index.asp

 

1380 tend to run a little hot on hot days so I would add an electrical aux fan or tropical fan.

 

Check out the June 2009 issue of Mini World. If you don't subscribe, it should be on the shelves of Barnes & Knoble real soon. In fact, get May as well, as that has part 1 of a supercharger install in it.

The article talks like 200hp is achievable with a good strong bottom end. In other words, don't expect to S/C your 998 and get a whole lot of power without blowing the bottom out of it.

I too have considered the Vtec conversion, but the cost is just way out there, even for a wealthy banker like myself (read profile B.S.). I believe I'll end up with a 1275 or larger motor, then possibly add the S/C just for the fun of it. Yeah, the cost is getting up there by doing so, but I'll also have that authentic A engine look (Brand Loyalty).

Anything approaching 200 hp is probably nuts in this car anyway, if you take into consideraion the power to wieght ratio. If you get up that high, will it be manageable, and in most cases, will you ever need that much without involving the law.

I think the Vtecs are pretty sweet to look at, and theres no doubt about reliability, afterall, Honda power has proven itself time and again (tune into the Indy 500 if you need proof). Used to be half the field would blow an engine easily years back, now it would seem thats a thing of the past. I just don't want to move into an electrical world of nightmares, thats not my cuppa tea.

I'm going to save this thread, because these thoughts and opinions mean alot to those of us who may still be unsure of what to do.

 

Agreed... I don't WANT 200HP (along with the monster torque steer that goes with it) in something with sheet metal doors and rubber cones. (Well, OK, I'd put in proper sptrings and Hi-Los if I did this). 100 or thereabouts is plenty for me.

And save away... I always get such good (and generally sane) ideas in here, that's why I bother posting.

Re: supercharger... Hmmmm... so the unit bolts on where the carb would go, and... what... mates up to a specially-fitted replacement carb? The images on that site are FUBARED, making it hard to see details. I always worry when someone's selling a $2000 part and they can't be bothered to pay someone $50 to put up proper photos...

 

There are others selling them as well, one guy in particular has a really well thought out and designed set up, I'll see if I can find the link for you.

It's all strictly a bolt on deal, and the Kits I saw included the carb, already correctly jetted for the size of the engine you were putting it on. They talk like it's about an 8 hour job for the average DIY'er..........

Found it, this is the guy I'd buy from if I were doing it..........

//http://www.vmaxscart.co.uk/supercharger.html

 

Interesting site and I like that he took the time to explain things. Thanks for scaring up the link.

However...

The "Frankenstein" factor for that solution is still fairly high. Nothing compared to the major work required for a VTEC, sure, but it still requires quite a few additional parts bolted onto a motor I'm not 100% sure could handle the extra stress. It's definitely something to consider, but I'm still leaning towards the "cleaner" 1380 solution at this time.

QUESTION: Does anyone know if the 1380 that Heritage or 7Ent or others would mate up to the stock exhaust manifold, or would I have to also replace everyhting in the exhaust system? I figured I'd need to do a cat-back replacement, as my current exhaust is OEM (read as" fugly and rusted"), but I wasn't going to replace the manifold if I didn't have to.

Also, does anyone know what, in general, the trade-in value given on the donor powerplant usually is, and just how the heck you get the motor to them? I'm imagining strapping the thing down to a palette, calling a shipping company and praying.

 

pretty sweet looking, no intercooler tho

 

As you know I am going to build a "D" series in my Aussie and I am wondering what issues you are having. I do hear that the 1380's have cooling issues in warm weather and where I live it gets hotter than dog snot on a tin roof.

 

When the time comes I was considering purchasing one of those aluminum trailers that thule sells and taking a road trip with my 06 to pick mine up.

 

My original plan was to buy a new power unit, then pull the original unit and swap in the new one. After talking to Graham, I opted to ship the whole car to him. There were a lot of advantages to this for me: (1) He was able to drive the car and find out the state of the existing power unit, specifically so that he could determine what could be reused and what was junk. (2) when the build was done, he could break in the engine and tune it as necessary. For me this was a big deal because I didn't have any experience with classics (it was my first one). After the engine was built and installed, he commuted in it a few days (at my request) to make sure there were no issues with the power unit. (3) He could do some routine maintenance on the car that I didn't have time to do, such as rebuild the wheel bearings, rebuild the steering column, and install an electric fuel pump for the new engine.

Anyway, I shipped the whole car to him from California (an 8 hour drive away) and picked the car up when it was done. I had that luxury which most people don't. I would _strongly_ recommend this option, although it will probably too price prohibitive for you.

As for price, you'd think it is pretty cut and dried, but I couldn't get an answer from anyone that I called. MM gave me a bit of vague information and Heritage ended up rebuilding my 1275 so there was no 'core' return ... just cost reduction across the board.

Jeff

 

I know what I would do if I owned an MPI . Wow, streetable 140-150hp!

 

Matt the 1275 you have is a very good power-plant. For much less money than that 1380 will cost you, you can build a wonderful 1275. Since your current engine is in good shape it would be a fine basis for a rebuild. Get a copy of David Visard's book on A series tuning & have a read.

 

To get a true 100BHP (at the flywheel or at the wheels) out of a normally aspirated pump gas A-series you need quite a bit of go-fast goodies, like a spendy head and a 286-ish (using Kent numbers here) cam and then proper fueling. That typically means around-town, low rpm driving suffers a bit and the power won't really kick in until about 3000-3500rpm. Your peak HP will be around the 5000rpm range.

I spent quite a bit on an SPVP3 cam from APT (similar to Scatter Pattern 286 Kent cam) and have a big valve ported head and about 10:1 compression with a MiniSpares intake manifold, unmodded single HIF6 carb, stub stack, K&N cone filter and nearly 4 hours on a dyno (at $150/hr) to custom taper a needle and ended up with 80hp at the wheels which is in the 90s at the flywheel. I'm at +.060 on the bore, so not up to the 1380 mark but reasonably close.

It's fun, but needs to rev to enjoy it a whole lot.

A 1380 with a Longman GT7 head and a Kent 286 cam put out in the mid-80s hp on the same dyno with both a weber and an HIF 6. It's just as rpm-needing as mine is. He's repeatedly got head-gasket issues despite being offset bored (hot so-cal weather, though).

I would imagine to get the quoted 110 hp from the Mania (or anyone's) power plant you would need some dyno time and certainly auxiliary cooling at Elprofe says.

--Spank

 

Which is why I like the supercharger idea so much, I think adding a better radiator would be all you'd need to do, maybe convert to an electric fan. I'll bet the 1275 you currently have even with the 80K on it would still benefit from supercharging, and then when you do rebuild it you already have the S-charger on it. In the meantime you get the fun and benefit of the extra power all for a weekend's worth of work and a couple $$ thou...........seems win-win to me......

OTOH, nothing wrong with a nice 1380 either!

Or a 1380 with a supercharger!