I have a question for all of you that learned how to weld at a technical school or community college...

So, I was perusing a recent back-issue of Practical Classics magazine, and they had a big article on rust repair featuring arc-welding, and it sparked (pun intended) my long-supressed interest in welding.

I made a few calls, and finally reached my local Community College. the good news: they do teach MIG welding. The bad news... they'll only "graduate" me up to "out of position" MIG after 2 other classes (each of 11 weeks duration). Class 1 will be stick, class 2 will be MIG, flat-only and I'll only be able to do out-of-position MIG (which, let's face it, it what I'll mainly need on a car) in class #3. Each class will cost about $400 with lab fees.

So... is this crazy or what? $1200 and almost a year of my time just to learn to weld as a hobby (not as part of a trade degree or certification) seems a bit overkill to me... Is it? It's been years since I last arc-welded in art school, and even then I just dabbled, but I don't recall it taking 33 weeks to learn.

Thanks!!

 

They are going to teach you the fundamentals, the why's and so forth. I learned to weld by picking up the stinger and going at it. MIG isn't as hard as it looks. I was fooling around with a MIG in our weld shop a few years back and the welding forman told me that my welds looked better and penetrated better than his more experienced welders work.

My suggestion is to get a decent machine and a bunch of scraps and just practice until you're blue in the face. Don't skimp on a mask/shield. You only get one set of eyes so spend the dough to protect them well!

 

ImagoX,

Here's Welding for Dummies 101:
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/

Please remit $600 (discounted price) to Minimad....

MIG welder- Lincoln, Miller or Hobart Don't bother with off-brands...get gas option Ar/CO2 Buy a larger bottle & save time on refills.
Miller Mask (bought a new auto-darkening today @ $150 at the welding supply store)
Long leather welding gloves
Sturdy cotton shirt (long sleeved), long pants and cotton socks
A welding blanket can come in handy to protect the surrounds (Harbor Freight has them cheap)
Protect your eyes and skin from flash burns...no t-shirts/bare arms
No on-lookers w/o masks

 

welding 101 cost me $100 and we were introducted to stick, MIG and TIG

I took mine at adult education at the local votec HS

I subsequently bought a MIG unit and have been happily patching OC ever since.

across the street was a community college who's welding track lead to full certification.......they cost more and moved slower but if you DO IT....you'd be a certified welder

understand the difference and search out a course for what you want to learn....

And YES, as I've discussed with other amateur welders....beginner classes tend to start you with a simple helmut. An inexpensive auto darkening helmut makes a BIG BIG BIG difference....

Then practice on scrap and ALWAYS test your settings on scrap B4 you touch the wire to the car....

( a MIG welder is simply a transformer. A transformer is a bundle of wire & MORE IS BETTER. A bundle of wire that's THICK is heavy and one that's THIN is not. A good transformer is heavy. Check the weight of the MIG welder you think u want to buy..... I've a MILLER; Hobart and Lincoln are in the same class IF you buy the models at a welding store...what you find at a chain MAY not be the same..... Check the duty cycle....and you MUST have a gas unit. Flux core has its place but you WANT gas fed when u can use it.)

Got a great price on a Miller small 240v unit on e-Bay ..... look for it...saved almost $100 from local dealer cost.

p.s. my local Home Despots RENTS Lincoln 110v MIG units, flux core only but hey the price is right.....

Unless like me and trying to win the "who owns the most tools" contest you CAN rent a MIG unit....

or find a club and ask around.....

 

Call your local vo-tech school. The two around me offer night classes. Auto body repair which you can learn how to weld in which is two nights a week for 14 weeks for $120 or actual welding which is $80 for 14 weeks one night a week.

If you want to start on your own its pretty easy.

1) You want to cut some squares of sheet metal may be like 4" or so and grind any surface coatings so you just have steel. You can buy a big sheet at any better auto parts store for less than $20.

2) There are two kinds of welds you want to start with. One where you overlap the pieces and one where you butt the pieces together.

3) To do the overlap weld you position the pieces with about a 1 inch overlap with clamps similar to these. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=30024

4) Put a small tack weld near each edge to hold the pieces together.

5) Next you start from one side and weld about a 1" strip over the seam in a smooth slow fashion. Let it cool and weld the next 1" strip. This is where the practice comes in you keep welding new pieces and strips until you get the feel for it. You will get a feel for how fast to move the nozzle and how thick to lay the bead. If you flip the newly welded piece over you should see a discoloration and a small hump which means you got proper penetration. You will also see how too much heat bends the sheet. You will just have to practice and it will come to you.

I have the lincoln sp140T which is the largest 110V welder they make. It's more than enough power to handle what your mini will need. I bought a mid sized argon bottle which was $100 for the bottle and $40 a fill. Buy a decent pair of gloves and the auto darkening helmet. Also buy a tub of anti-spatter. You dip the nozzle in anti-spatter to keep weld metal from building up on it.

If you were closer to me I'd come on down and get you started in a whole half an hour. It's not rocket science.

 

I second that. I bought a Lincoln WeldPak 155 (220V MIG) with gas about 6-7 years ago and picked it up pretty quick. I've not done any sheet metal, but doing projects on my '68 Jeep or something as simple as my service ramps (see URL of pictures below) is pretty easy. I would only spend $1200 if I wanted to work towards becoming a certified welder.

Mini service ramp pictures:
http://desertwave.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=7453

Cheers,
Jeff

 

Self-taught here also... as has been said, bought the biggest 110v welder from Hobart that does gas and flux wire - got the argon/co2 gas bottle (mid-sized, should last me YEARS), auto-darkening mask, good gloves, flame retardant welding jacket, and played with it until I was producing good enough welds for what I need to do... bought a how-to book with good illustrations and examples, and ran with it. Within a few hours I was doing decent welds... I'm DEFINITELY not ready to do anything structural... but for basic stuff, no worries.

 

It's not often that I answer a question in my real area of expertise (PhD in Industrial Technology and formerly with an office in the Welding Engineering Building at the Ohio State University). Here is the bottom line.

Welding can be very technical. But what you will be doing is not that technical or difficult. And if set up correctly, a monkey can MIG weld. All those welding robots you see on assembly lines are MIG welding. So if you don't want to take the course, go to your local welding supply company and pick a welder in your price (and garage power) range. They may also have a free class or give you some instruction right there.

Then go to the junk yard and get some metal and go at it. You should easily be able to get a Welding text in your local library and reading it can do nothing but help. I would also get a good helmet and automatic shield so you don't have to also learn how to flip your helmet down to start the weld. After a while you will become comfortable, your welds will look good and there will be fewer holes in whatever you are welding.

At that point I would look to a TIG welder. Much more control and much more versatile for fine work. That said the MIG welder is good if you want to build or repair your trailer.

That's my 2 cents. And yes, you can get the welder a bit cheaper in Costco or some other place but you cannot get any expertise there. You have to get gas somewhere so I think the extra bucks you spend at a welding supply place is well worth it as they will begin to look at you like a customer rather than someone who just needs a tank of gas.

Rich

 

It's not that hard to learn. The miller website has a ton of how-to's and technical articles to show you how to do it. Sign up for their newsletter and you'll get more info than you want.
Do stick to the name brands for your equipment. Some of the lower end models, like the Lincoln you get at HD, have only a few heat and wire settings. Stepping up to the next model or Miller/Hobart upper end 110v units gets you a bit better range of adjustments which can make the job easier. Get the cart for it and to hold the bottle, it's worth it.

Rich.Wolfson, most of the assembly line robots I worked with were arc/spot welding. The other automated units were TIG. For what application do they MIG on assembly lines?

 

I agree. It's the setup that is important.

Most of what I have seen recently are MIG wire feed but admittidly both the GM and Ford plants are not operating in New Jersey any more and I have not not been inside and upclose in a while.

My understanding is that in the beginning there used to be a lot of spot welding on cars as the robots literally replaced line workers. But most welding on current auto assembly lines are MIG bead welds which are stronger. I have not seen TIG robots as, if I am not mistaken, it would take two hands.

I could be wrong but....

Rich

 

Orbital TIG pipe welding. Set the pipe and let the machine do the rest. Never any filler rod, would create an imperfect weld. Majority of the work in the semi-conductor industry process gas area is this way.

 

While I agree with the comment in general, I have a Lincoln 110 which is more than sufficient to weld Mini sheet metal and build a rotisserie out of pipe and channel stock.

I do agree that adjustments are better with higher end machines. That is why I warned to stay away from any "off-brands" like Campbell Hausfield, and other unknowns. Parts for Lincolns are everywhere. Lowes offers 2 or 3 models of the Lincoln.

Find a cart that puts the adjustments/welder in easy reach. This style works well

 

I'm told that welding units are frequent fliers in pawn shops ......

another potential source.

 

I'd skip buying the cart and make one as your first project.

 

These are all GREAT comments guys - thanks.

And no, I'm not interested in becoming certified - I just want to be able to do things like weld in circular patches when I chop out rust and put in new sills and the like. the articles I've been reading all seem fairly straightforward, but I also know that there's often a huge difference between reading about a thing and actually feeling a thing in your hands.

I did see that a few High Schools were listed in the welding education list I saw (http://www.aws.org/w/sense/search_ra...35&farthest=50) but I had no idea why - now I know. So if I went this way, I'd call the HS and ask for the "adult education program". Spending $120 or so to assure I get some one-on-one time with someone who really knows what they're doing seems more than fair to me.

Also, thanks for the tip on the pawn shop - I actually know someone that's related to the owner of Lev's here in Columbus, so I'll put out the word that I'm looking - great tip! Making the cart as a first project seems like a great idea!

Can anyone make a short list of "must have" metalworking tools that I'll need for basic Mini body work projects? All I have now are snips and a pop-rivet gun (which I actually used to set my floor patch a few months back), so I'd need an angle grinder, clamps, the overlap-tool (a joggler?) and.... what else?

 

..........and a couple of hammers and dolleys, you can get all of this stuff at Harbor Freight for pennies and it will serve you fine, you're not making a living with them.

Just as the others have said, buy a welder, a good hemet and get some steel and go at it. The best advice I can offer is to slow down when you weld, most people tend to rush the weld which means you don't get good penetration. Remember, you're trying to move the molten puddle, so watch closely and move slowly and smoothly. If you have your heat and wire speed set right you'll hear the tell-tale "sizzle", like bacon frying. If you're getting big globs your wire speed's to high or your heat's too low. If the arc keeps going out your wire speed's too slow or your heat's is too high.

When welding sheet metal, you do not run a bead, or the heat will warp the metal and you'll never get it straight. What you do is a series of spot welds, moving all around the patch till it's all filled it. If the metal starts getting hot because you're doing a small patch, stop and let it cool periodically, then do some more spots.

Time and practice is your friend and best teacher.

 

Get some sanding disks to go with the angle grinder and if you really get into it later, a pneumatic needle gun. If you want to do sheet metal work, I suggest going around to a few body shops and ask if they mind you raiding their scrap pile. Get a old deck lid or hood to chop some pieces out. You could also watch Spike on Saturdays or Sundays. They do sheet metal work on hotrods on one of the shows there. You can pick up some great tips from them.

 

Good to know - I'll set my DVR to look for those shows - great tip! What's a needle gun do? Also, when is the best time to use the "button weld" technique (when you punch holes in the replacement patch)? Any time you're layering metal on top of solid metal. or is there a more specific application? They used button welds pretty heavily in the corner and sill replacement article I just read.

Last, what's a "shrinker" (other than a cold swimming pool, that is)? I know it's a kind of dolly, but when would you use it?

Thanks!

 

1. I'd call the school board or check their website to see if they have an adult ed listing (individual HS only provide the classroom in my experience)

Here's listing from the two courses I ended up taking in Chesapeake VA
from http://www.cps.k12.va.us/departments...e_spring09.pdf

BASIC WELDING TECHNIQUES
Are you considering welding as a career or hobby? If so, this hands-on course is a great place to begin your welding education! In this course, students are instructed in the operation of both oxy-fuel and electric welding systems, as well as the joining processes of SMAW, GMAW, GTAW and plasma cutting.

AUTO BODY REPAIR

I took welding and discovered this second course. The average student here had taken the course 5 times. Basically the tuition gave full access to the votec hs body shop - all tools, welders etc - paint booth - including a full computer paint mixing system and a bunch of people who had experience. Very good follow up to see where a spot weld is used, how to duplicate with a plug weld, use a resistance welder, ....

2. Get a catalog from EASTWOOD (eastwoodco.com) - even if you buy similar tools from HF...the catalog and descriptions help and sometimes Eastwood is the one source for THAT tool.

3. Find a welding supply....go inside and let them pitch you a small welder. Ask them about the differences 'tween a good one and a crap one. Do this B4 you buy anything. the BEST thing I learned in the welding class I've described was "how to buy a welder". Reminds me of a SCUBA certification course where again they spent a good bit of time talking about equipment and what to buy and NOT buy. YES it is a sales pitch but listen anyway. I've even heard of welding shops willing to give a few hours of training just to get the sale. I suggest you stick to Miller, Lincoln or Hobart....pay attention to truck mounted welders for the next couple of weeks. If you see something other than one of these 3 brands I'd be surprized.

4. Check out the Miller, Lincoln and Hobart websites. There's training videos buried there as others have pointed out.

5. Agree - building a cart is an excellent first project. A few feet of angle iron (steel) and some wheels.... btw you can buy angle, rod and channel steel and flat plate in sheets at Home Despot and Lowes. Really....just ask where they buried it. Usually in hardware.

 

This is true (as was everything else Capt_bj said )... but they charge an insane amount for some of the stuff... I bought an aluminum rod for a project and pricing on that wasn't too bad... some angle I've bought at Lowes has been a bit pricey... some of their sheet/plate stuff is STUPIDLY pricey... you may do better to find a friendly local welding shop and see if they'll sell you small amounts of stuff when needed. They'll usually buy it in "standards" from a large supply house, where it's much cheaper by unit, but you have to buy a lot of it (like full size sheets/plates, full lengths of rod/bar/channel, etc).

 

Take your time to go to a sheet metal supplier or a metal supply shop. You'll save a bundle. Lowes & HD are crazy prices for metal.

Button weld panels that were previously spot welded. Seam weld everything else.
Do you have a good compressor?
If so, this is one of the best ways to grind welds and smooth things out. Much easier to handle and get access to areas than an angle grinder. Easier to change discs too.



Cutters for metal:


For neat straight cuts:


Need to punch holes for plug welds or fold a flange for an overlap joint:

 

Absolutely true

The per foot price at HD/Lowes is crazy....but the other suppliers I've contacted wanted to know how many hundreds of pounds I wanted...they do truckload orders. So what I am saying is you CAN find 10 or 20 feet of angle or a 4 by 4 sheet (or more likely for us a 2ft by 2) of 16 gauge at Lowes, which I presume you went to cuz it is less than a preformed floor pan or rocker panel (and u may learn was not true...) .... when I wanted 25 feet of angle 4 my first welding project I sought out "real suppliers" first and they laughed at me for the small amount. I'd not SEEN such stuff at HD/Lowes and felt dumb once I did...that was my intent...LOWES/HD DOES sell angle and sheet.....

A hint....a couple of the "real" suppliers I found would let folks in on saturday to buy scrap for a few bucks a pound.

Hint #2 .... bed frames are decent angle..... Yard sales can be a great source of cheap 1 inch angle if you have the means to cut off the brackets.

 

1) http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=6002
These clamps are really useful for securing your repair piece to the car. Buy a few sets.

2) I really like the die grinder with the 2" roloc disks and rubber backing similar to these. Really handy for grinding welds especially in tight spots. http://www.levineautoparts.com/clicherfor3m.html A roto-zip works well in place of a die grinder if you don't have air.

3) The hammer and dolly set harbor freight has isn't bad for what it is. I really couldn't find anything better other than buying snap-on body hammers at $100 a piece.

4) A can of weld through primer. You spray any bare metal that will not be able to be primer after you finish welding. http://www.azautobodysupply.com/sem39brwepr1.html

5) Nozzle anti-spatter gel or spray http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...10000003+90106

6) A tip cleaner. Its basically a file for cleaning out the wire feeder tip. Saves you from replacing tips. http://www.welders-direct.com/mercha...t_Code=STC-KTC

7) A good set of right and left snips. I like the offset style as the seem easier to control. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100025352

 

Lots of vice grips. The small ones (4" or so long) at HF are cheap and when used in quantity very useful in securing body panel seams in place while welding.

A local steel supplier sells channel and angle in 16" lengths but will cut it down for a nominal fee. Still much cheaper than HD/Lowes.

Another smaller Pipe & Steel supply shop sells whatever I need. They pre-cut all the iron for my rotiserrie to my spec.

Sheet metal shops will sell you whatever size sheet you want. Mini bodys are 20 guage, btw. They will also form it on a brake if you provide them a profile. I've had inner sills made up that way. They are relatively inexpensive on some pieces compared to buying panels.

 

A needle gun is kind of like a pneumatic hammer but instead of a blunt, heavy tip, there are needles around 1/16" or 1/8" in diameter about 6" long in a tight group. If you want to remove paint or slag fast, a needle gun is one way to do it. I wouldn't use it on a car body though. I understand what you mean by the button technique but I have never done it. A shrinker would be used in a place where the material had been stretched. Body damage on a car usually stretches the material at the point of impact. Think of a baseball thrown at a door skin and hitting it where there is no reinforcement from the inside. That would stretch the metal, if only slightly, inward.

I think I said it before but, I'm no expert at this stuff, I'm basing what I say here off of personal experiences and observations.