I've got a 1998 Mini with a rattling whine coming from somewhere deep, when I run up the first three gears. My mechanic here in Munich says it has to do with the gear box, though he's never heard a sound like that in 15 years on the job. He says he will have to take the engine out and look, and he wants 2000 euros in labor alone. In all the five years we've used him, he's been honest. I'd like a second opinion. My Mini is a beauty and I'd love to keep it, but I can't afford his fishing expedition. Any ideas on what the problem is? Thanks!

Here's a snap of my Mini.

 

Too difficult to conjecture over the internet....any other syptoms? Does it jump out of any gear? Is it hard to shift? Grind? Could be gearbox internal (maybe bearings) or could be idler gear bearings in the transfer gear set.

 

Dear Minimad:
Thanks for your quick response. It does not jump out of gear, and it in no way affects normal driving. No problems shifting, no grinding. Are the bearings or idler bearing expensive to replace? Will the gear box freeze up and damage the engine if it is not repaired asap? To be honest, it sounds like something loose, like a broken gear tooth rattling around, or a loose bearing. Cheers!

 

Wow, what a sharp looking Mini! Sure hope you get things worked out...and for cheaper than 2000 Euros! Sorry, not much help.

 

Engine removal takes 2hrs max.

But, the engine must be separated from the trans and the trans dismantled to access the gears & bearings. I don't know what mechanics hourly charges are there, but 2,000 euro equates to 62+ hours of labor @ $50/hour or 41+ hours @ $75/hr. I can't see a professional taking more than three days on it. Seems very expensive. Shop around. Get someone who can give you a better diagnosis.

For comparison, a remanufactured gearbox from MiniSPort is 352 pounds
http://www.minisport.com/acatalog/Mi...d_Gearbox.html
or about $700 USD.

 

Dear Minimad:
Thanks for your latest update on cost of labor and price for remanued gearbox. I am definitely shopping around. Thanks again,

Cheers!

Ehd

 

Those hourly rates are way out of the realm of normal. Try more like 80-100 USD an hour. If you can find 60 USD an hour still, you're quite lucky here in the US.

An MPI will take longer than 2 hours to pull the motor. It's got a brake booster and a lot of other crap in the way that an old carb mini doesn't. I put it at 3 hours just to pull it. Then another 3+ hours to put it back in. That doesn't even include the time to repair the gearbox.

The MPI minis are notorious for having the double roller main shaft transmission bearing go bad. The plastic cage deteriorates and causes the mainshaft to move under load. Easy to diagnose if you get the car up in the air and slowly spin the wheels. If you can hear the "tick tick" of the bearings bouncing against one another as they go over the top and roll down to the bottom, then your bearing cage is gone and the need to replace it is only a matter of time. How much the repair will untimately cost depends on how bad the transmission got before you did something about it. Could be just a main bearing or could be mainshaft, layshaft and all gears.

--Spank

 

No idea of what labor rates are, Spank. (I do my own work) I just indicated he should figure out how much time is involved and what local rates are. It's always best to get more than one quote and to check on the reputation of the shop before having them work on your car.

So far you've indentified less than one day's work. Does three sound reasonable for the entire task on an MPI (by a professional, equipped shop)? Also, with all the additional engine compartment stuff, why wouldn't it be easier to disconnect and drop the front subby w/motor? Curious, as I've never owned an MPI.

 

Just a question - what kind of oil are you running in the Mini? I ask because I've heard of many people form the UK forums running Mobil 1 or other high-end synthetic oils in the A-series engine, only to have gearbox issues afterwards. Aparantly, the shared oil supply used in the A-series engine (the same oil is used to lube the gearbox AND the top end pistons/rockers/etc.) can cause the synthetic oil molucules to "unzip" when run through the differential. basically, what I hear is that the best oil to use is PETROLIUM-based oil such as Castrol GTX High Mileage or even good motorcycle oil (NOT synthetic of course), given the abuse the differential gearing puts on the oil. Modern synthetic engine oil is NOT designed to be run in the gearbox (modern cars have a different, second oil supply for that area) and chemically, the differential is BRUTAL to the lubrucation from what I've read.

I say this because if you've been running synthetic oil in the Mini engine, even a very expensive, name-brand synthetic like Mobil 1, you may have inadvertantly suffered very early lubrication breakdown - if this is so, telling your mechanic might help with the diagnostics. You could also have the used engine oil analyzed for viscosity breakdown if you're not sure...

If, however, you've done every oil change with a true petrolium-based oil then this is all likely moot and the issue is something else.

Best of luck!!!

 

I agree with ImagoX, use regular mineral base 20W50 in the mini (I use Penzoil), not only because the gearbox shares the same oil, but also the engine itself hasn't changed much in design and machined tolerances (which are huge compared to today's engines) in it's whole existance.

 

20W50 is a good choice - thanks, Miniroll - I forgot to say that! Since switching to the Castrol High Mileage in 20W50, I've had almost NO engine oil leaks anyplace. Just be sure to let the car warm up very well on cold mornings - the "20" is the initial viscocity number, and it will take a little tiime to warm it up in the wintertime. More viscous oil doesn't leak out the seals as easily though...

 

I put the same oil as Matt did in my Mini and the oil leak stopped also and the transmission shifts better also (she's an automatic). Good stuff. Don't get synthetic though.

 

That's good info XB... I was wondering how the difference would be in the automatic. Thanks!

And yes - NO SYNTHETIC! Mineral/petroleum-based oil only seems to be the safest bet.

 

While we are on the topic of oil are any of you using zinc additives in your oil. Supposedly the oil they sell today has less zinc and some people claim that it causes wear on flat tappets. I have also read that this is not the case. I first heard this from some guy at a car show babbling about having trouble in his mg and that others are having troubles as well. I haven't really found a straight answer if zinc additive is good/bad/unnecessary.

 

According to lots of reading on this subject (and even still, some sources disagree - sometimes vehemently - with others that sound just as knowledgeable), oil USED to have zinc in it - it functioned as a sacrificial material, coated the moving parts with a thin layer of ablative material, and extended the life of the oil. You can certainly add zinc (you can buy the additive and add it when you change your oil), but here's the thing:

If your Mini has a catalytic converter, the zinc byproducts will cause the cat to wear out much faster - this is why the automotive industry phased out zinc in the first place (as cat converters became more commonplace they needed to extend their life).

So (and again, this is based on reading threads on UK and US Mini forums for more than a year, but I am not a chemist, mechanic or expert - be warned)...

If you have a catalytic converter on your Mini - I would NOT add zinc, but instead use a quality 20W50 mineral-based oil and change it every year or 3,000 miles religiously. Modern oil is amazing stuff provided you do NOT use a synthetic in the shared oil sump and follow the basic precautiions (change regularly, do not mix oil grades or manufacturers, etc.).

OR...

If you decide you DO want to add zinc, remove your cat (you can get a piece of pipe called a "cat delete replacement" from places like GBcarparts.com) and then DO add zinc to every oil change. If you do leave the cat o the car, expect it to fail, possibly in a few short years (depending on how good a shape it's in when you start adding zinc). Cats aren't TOO expensive, and you may be able to get a salvage one off a wrecked car, so that's a good trade-off in my opinion - the protection of zinc, the legality of the cat and the relatively low cost if you have access to a replacement cat later on when it fails.

NOTE: removing the cat may be illegal in your state and might cause you to fail an emissions inspection, even if you have the car registered as a Historic Automobile - you have been warned.

 

I read all the same stuff online but it's hard to tell if some of those sources are reliable based on fact or just someone talking. I assume you are not using zinc and haven't had any problems then. By the way they won't sell you a salvage cat in my area because they are worth more in scrap than what they can charge.

 

The people I finally read were chemists working for various petroleum companies. I really should have saved all the links - they took a few weeks of fairly vigilant searching and weeding-out to locate, but the long and the short of it is that modern engine oil is different mainly because of the cat - it used to have zinc and that was in there to protect parts that might rub together. I personally do NOT add zinc, since I do have a cat installed - I have something like 76k miles on my odometer and I change the oil every 3k miles (every 6 months or so the way I drive).

 

Buy Valvoline Racing oil in 20W50 and it has ZDDP in it...problem solved.

 

I think the stuff you mean is Valvoline's VR1 Racing Oil:

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=50

But is it a synthetic? And is it for engine AND gearbox use? Lots of cars use a secondary gearbox oil supply because of the differential issue with breaking down the oil. This doees have ZDDP though so it should not need any additives - I'd hazard to guess that you'll reduce the life of your catalytic converter using this stuff though - race cars generally aren't worried about emissions after all, and ar enot as a rule fitted with cats.

Lots of threads on MG and other classic car boards about this stuff, by the way. Looks promising if I ever remove my cat (I'm considering doing so when I replace my rotting exhaust system), but for the time being I'll stick with the High Mileage Castrol 20W50 - I like not leeaking all over the garage floor.

 

Valvoline VR-1 20W50 is not synthetic.
http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR...otor%20Oil.pdf

 

What about a synthetic blend?

 

I'd still avoid it... A-series engines were designed to be run on mineral-based oil, and I'd worry about partial break-down from the action of the differential. Obviously though, if anyone runs across something concrete that talks about blends in a shared-sump engine (pro or con), please post the link.

Minimad - THANK YOU for the confirmation. Sounds like a definite option for older minis that were not fitted with cats. There are tons of threads on old Porsche, MG, Jag and other classic car sites reporting good success with the VR1 oil. Sounds like a great option if you want the extra protection of the zinc, and places like Autobarn and others sell if starting at around $5 a quart - not bad. I am seeing other grades for around $10/quart that warn that it's not street legal - I assume this is an oil for true race/drag engines.

Sorry for the thread-jack - I honestly was only hoping to give the origonal poster a bit of perspective and some areas to check, not start yet another "which oil is best in my Mini?" thread.

 

I get mine at Autozone. Don't know the price - not like you can negotiate with 'em anyway...

Oil opinion...
http://www.calverst.com/ArticleFM.htm
http://www.calverst.com/ArticleFM.htm

 

Whatever oil brand you use, just make sure it's mineral based and 20W50. Based on many mini owners in germany along with minispeed.de (who has been working on minis for almost 30years) this is the way to go, to get the best protection and extend the life of the motor/gearbox. Just change it every 3000miles/5000km or every year