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Old 09-10-2009, 12:47 PM
clutchless clutchless is offline
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Intake Valve Deposits

I found this thread at the bobistheoilguy.com web page. Apparently Minis have valve deposit issues and Mini is devising an intake manifold modification to reduce them. It is pasted below:

My brother is friends with the shop foreman at a local Mini dealer. He went down there to hang out and saw some pretty interesting things that I thought I'd share, as they seem relevant to the ongoing discussion about fuel dilution and intake system deposits in direct-injected engines. If any of this is old news, feel free to ignore me.

Several of the new direct-injected engines were apart for service. They had a variety of things wrong with them, but all of them had significant intake valve deposits. Many were low mileage engines. Apparently they looked just like what we are seeing in VW engines.

Here's the kicker. My brother heard that Mini is going to re-fit the intake manifolds on those cars, adding nozzles to the runners right next to where they bolt to the head. Some kind of device will be able to attach to those nozzles to clean the intake valve deposits. I'm not sure if it's going to facilitate dealer service, or if the system will be permanently installed in the car.

Anyway, there's an anecdote FWIW. If it's true, it sounds interesting...
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:08 PM
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Benibiker Benibiker is offline
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Do you have a direct link to the thread?
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:43 PM
clutchless clutchless is offline
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Here is the link. This is a great site for information regarding oil, air & oil filters, gas additives etc. Many members are oil industry engineers or otherwise experienced in vehicle lubrication & maintenance.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...79#Post1592779
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by clutchless View Post
Here is the link. This is a great site for information regarding oil, air & oil filters, gas additives etc. Many members are oil industry engineers or otherwise experienced in vehicle lubrication & maintenance.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...79#Post1592779
Thanks! That is a very interesting site!
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:42 AM
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But doesn't a direct injection engine eliminate the intake valve deposits because there is no fuel in the incoming charge ?
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Old 09-11-2009, 08:22 AM
countryboyshane countryboyshane is offline
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The biggest source of deposits on our intake valves is from the crankcase vapors from the PCV tube. You can minimize the vapor by using a catch can but the only one made right now is from M7, and you have to remove the intake siphon tube to install it. Kind of ridiculous if you asked me.

The only viable solution seems to be pouring some Sea Foam through the PCV tube and of course following Sea Foam's directions. Who wants to try it first on an R56 LOL!
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Old 09-11-2009, 08:44 AM
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Red Line SI-1 complete fuel system cleaner may be a worth a try in our engines. Red Line states the following about this cleaner:

"The detergents used survive the combustion process and clean the PCV valve and the EGR port as well as cleaning deposits in the combustion chamber."

See this link: http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/56.pdf
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:12 AM
countryboyshane countryboyshane is offline
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I still doubt that the additives survive and swirl around the intake valve during overlap. It just doesn't seem logical for how long a duration overlap lasts (if it exists at all in the Prince engine). The way those fuel system cleaners are most effective is when they are used with manifold injection systems. At least the additive cleans the injector and the combustion chamber in a direct injection engine However, that nasty goo on the intake valves from crankcase vapors needs to be attacked in another way and the only viable option seems to be Sea Foam or removing the head and doing it manually.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by countryboyshane View Post
The biggest source of deposits on our intake valves is from the crankcase vapors from the PCV tube. You can minimize the vapor by using a catch can but the only one made right now is from M7, and you have to remove the intake siphon tube to install it. Kind of ridiculous if you asked me.

The only viable solution seems to be pouring some Sea Foam through the PCV tube and of course following Sea Foam's directions. Who wants to try it first on an R56 LOL!



didn't realize the new engine had that much blow-by. Someone definitely needs to come up with a nice catch can design then.
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:40 PM
countryboyshane countryboyshane is offline
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Originally Posted by Bigshot View Post


didn't realize the new engine had that much blow-by. Someone definitely needs to come up with a nice catch can design then.
I wonder how severe these claimed deposits are? I don't think it's anything to get worried about, but it would be interesting to see some pictures with the number of miles on the engine and other details. I know Porsche has problems like this, but that's a different beast.

M7 has come up with a catch can, but you've gotta ditch your intake siphon tube so now the source of cold air is directly around the engine, which is hotter than where the inlet of the siphon tube is. I do not like this Our engine bay sure is crammed!

Maybe at 50,000 miles I'll try the Sea Foam and post my findings. I'm sure a video of the billowing white smoke will be totally sweet LOL!
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:20 PM
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Shane

With the DoS intake i had room to mount my catch can. look at duel jp they have photos showing a coolant overflow bottle where i put my catch can.
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:23 AM
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I have been using a system that drips the fuel system cleaner in through a vacuum line to the intake manifold. This is the same as what many professional repair shops use for an intake system cleaning or carbon depletion service. See www.carfood.net They sell the system which fits onto a vacuum line and has a valve to adjust the flow of cleaner so you do not stall the motor and lots of cleaner chemicals. It is simple to use. Sea foam works but makes tons of smoke. There are other chemicals available. I may try Red Line next. I have a bottle and have been using it in the fuel in my vehicles for years. It does work well to remove deposits. It is similar in chemistry to Techron and BG fuel system cleaners and is approved by BMW. It states that on the bottle. The www.bobistheoilguy.com forums have lots of great information on gas additives and fuel system cleaning.

For preventative maintenance I recommend FP Plus for Gasoline made by www.LCDINC.com mixed 50/50 with Bio-Plus Injector Cleaner & Gas Conditioner by Renewable Lubricants http://www.renewablelube.com/ LCD sells or includes a pint mixing bottle that is used to squirt into the tank. I learned of this mix from an oil engineer at bobistheoilguy and he had great success with this mix in cleaning up VWs and Audis. It is expensive, but a couple gallons lasts a long long time at the rate of 1 ounce per gallon. It improves power and mileage while cleaning and keeping clean. I am not affiliated with either company. Just a happy consumer. My 1995 Explorer with over 125,000 miles is treated regularly and just passed emissions with low readings like a new car and gets 18-20 miles per gallon.
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:28 AM
countryboyshane countryboyshane is offline
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Can you post a link Stig?
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:41 AM
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You can insert the Sea Foam through a vacuum line using a kit from www.carfood.net It has a valve on the clear line to control flow and prevent stalling as you drip it in, this takes several minutes, slower is better. This is like the system used by many professional shops. I have used it for years in several cars. They also sell many different cleaner chemicals. Sea Foam works but does make a lot of smoke. I may use Red Line next as it works great in the gas tank and I have a bottle. I do not have a Mini, but am about to order a 2010 Clubman S.

For daily routine maintenance to prevent intake valve deposits I recommend a formula recommended by and oil engineer ( tribologist ) at www.bobistheoilguy.com They had great success with this mix in the Audis that were famous for deposits and sludge. It is expensive, but it lasts a long time as you use 1 ounce per gallon. FP Plus for Gasoline by Lube Control www.lcdinc.com (they also offer a pint bottle for mixing, measuring and squirting into the tank.) Mixed 50/50 with Renewable Lubricants Bio-Plus Injector Cleaner and Gas Conditioner http://www.renewablelube.com/ I have used this in my old 1995 Explorer with over 125000 miles and it runs clean, passing emission recently with readings at the minimum and it gets 18-20 miles per gallon. I am not affiliated with any of these companies, just a pleased consumer.
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Old 09-12-2009, 01:42 PM
countryboyshane countryboyshane is offline
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Originally Posted by clutchless View Post
You can insert the Sea Foam through a vacuum line using a kit from www.carfood.net It has a valve on the clear line to control flow and prevent stalling as you drip it in, this takes several minutes, slower is better. This is like the system used by many professional shops. I have used it for years in several cars. They also sell many different cleaner chemicals. Sea Foam works but does make a lot of smoke. I may use Red Line next as it works great in the gas tank and I have a bottle. I do not have a Mini, but am about to order a 2010 Clubman S.

For daily routine maintenance to prevent intake valve deposits I recommend a formula recommended by and oil engineer ( tribologist ) at www.bobistheoilguy.com They had great success with this mix in the Audis that were famous for deposits and sludge. It is expensive, but it lasts a long time as you use 1 ounce per gallon. FP Plus for Gasoline by Lube Control www.lcdinc.com (they also offer a pint bottle for mixing, measuring and squirting into the tank.) Mixed 50/50 with Renewable Lubricants Bio-Plus Injector Cleaner and Gas Conditioner http://www.renewablelube.com/ I have used this in my old 1995 Explorer with over 125000 miles and it runs clean, passing emission recently with readings at the minimum and it gets 18-20 miles per gallon. I am not affiliated with any of these companies, just a pleased consumer.
Great advice. Bookmarked!
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Old 09-12-2009, 04:34 PM
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Can you post a link Stig?
Just for you.


http://duell.sakura.ne.jp/sblo_files...e/RIMG1227.JPG
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Old 09-23-2009, 06:46 AM
countryboyshane countryboyshane is offline
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Pretty cool. Won't work with my DDM RIS setup though. I'm definitely not willing to get rid of that.

Seafoam is looking like on of the best solutions for people without a catch can.
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:19 PM
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Mini offers a valve deposit cleaning service. Cost about $220. I spoke with one of the service advisers and he said that you should do it about every 15,000 miles, it has something to do with the turbos and not so much with the superchargers and he HIGHLY recommended it. He also said that they had one person come in and it was so dirty they had to get it sent out to be cleaned.
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Old 09-24-2009, 05:44 AM
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Mini offers a valve deposit cleaning service. Cost about $220. I spoke with one of the service advisers and he said that you should do it about every 15,000 miles...
this is getting ridiculous! sometimes i think that BMW intentionally designs their cars with flaws that have to be serviced by them. really!!!!! if it should be done every 15k miles, then it should be covered under the maintainence plan and paid for by them for the first 36k miles.
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Old 09-24-2009, 06:00 AM
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Most modern cars have problems with carbon etc deposit build up on intake valves/manifolds/throttle body due to gasoline formulations and high engine temperatures, see below. The Mini is no exception. It is often recommended generically to do what is called a carbon depletion service or fuel induction service every 2 years or 30 thousand miles. Attached is a link to the web page of Pat Goss, the mechanic on the Public Broadcasting TV show "Motorweek". He actually operates a service facility in Maryland and has a local weekend radio show where you can call in with car repair questions. I have been listening for years, and called in with questions a few times as I work on my own cars, his knowledge is encyclopedic. http://www.goss-garage.com/node/35

This is pasted from his site(Motorvac and BG are name brands for manufacturers of equipment and related chemicals that perform this service):
Motorvac or BG Carbon Depletion Service: Removes carbon and deposits from injectors, valves, and combustion chambers. Carbon deposits are the result of additives used in modern gasolines to keep them stable and burnable. These necessary chemicals leach out and form substantial collections of carbon. Motorvac or carbon depletion services are recommended for emissions failures, engine pinging problems, rough idle problems, hard starting, hesitation problems and as general preventive maintenance. Failure to perform this service could lead to failed emissions, various performance concerns, lowered fuel economy, engine noises and sometimes --- engine damage.

You do not have to have the dealer do it. Many independent shops can perform it for lower cost.

Last edited by clutchless; 09-24-2009 at 06:02 AM. Reason: More data
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Old 09-24-2009, 08:27 AM
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this is getting ridiculous! sometimes i think that BMW intentionally designs their cars with flaws that have to be serviced by them. really!!!!! if it should be done every 15k miles, then it should be covered under the maintainence plan and paid for by them for the first 36k miles.
I think it is covered by the maintenance plan but im not sure. Mine has already ended so he just told me the price =/
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Old 09-24-2009, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mrzeld View Post
this is getting ridiculous! sometimes i think that BMW intentionally designs their cars with flaws that have to be serviced by them. really!!!!! if it should be done every 15k miles, then it should be covered under the maintainence plan and paid for by them for the first 36k miles.
It should be covered 4 years / 50k miles as a warranty issue!
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Old 09-24-2009, 06:35 PM
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Gasoline is an Hydrocarbon, you don't have to have additives in the gas to have a problem. The additives such as the detergents are designed to help reduce carbon build-up. The problem is with the design of the engines, direct injection means there is no unburned fuel flowing over the intake valves to help clean them.
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:06 AM
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.....nor cause the build-up in the first place. Direct injection motors do not cause the intake valve build-up, the oil from from PCV does.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:42 PM
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There is a specific "Direct Injection and Combustion Chamber Cleaning Procedure" from MINI that we usually perform on 25-35k mile N14 cars due to the incredible amount of carbon buildup on the intake valves. The cars come in with SES light on, multiple misfires.

The process completely eliminates the low-pressure fuel pump from the equation and runs gasoline mixed 3:1 with fuel cleaner concentrate(p# 82140428376). The procedure runs for about 25min. and then we add the regular fuel cleaner(p# 82140413341) to the fueltank and provide one more bottle for the next fuel fill up, to the customer.

I would HIGHLY recomend that every N14 customer use some kind of fuel system cleaner every fourth fill-up, along with good quality fuel(shell / sunoco). It definitely helps.

Joey

Last edited by joey1320; 10-01-2009 at 12:55 PM.
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