Well, now that I've got the kinks worked out of my Wilwood setup and have some miles on them (200) I find that I'm actually sort of disappointed in stopping power. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE them just based on the fact that they never fade. I'm having a couple issues though:

1) They don't seem to bite as good as the stocks with the same pedal pressure and the pedal doesn't seem to be stiffer even with the SS lines.

2) It seems to set the ABS off way before they actually start to slide. Maybe the EBC rear pads are to blame for this?

Overall though, If I SLAM the brake pedal they'll stop faster than stock but only if the pedal is on the floor. Maybe they wern't bled properly?

Oh, I have the standard 12.2" kit from Helix.

 

Possible that you got air in the system during the bleed. Did you replace ethe fluid as well or just use stock fluid? ATE Super Blue will give you higher fade resistance and should eliminate some of the squishy pedal feeling.

 

My experience is just the opposite.

I have the 13" kit from TCE along with their rear kit, using BP10 pads up front and EBC green in the rear.

It requires very little pressure and these babies stop RIGHT NOW!!!

I now find that when switching over to one of my other vehicles I have to consciously step on the pedal harder, because if I use the same pressure I use in the MINI they don't stop at all.

I have not been hardly able to induce the ABS even under extreme stops for the highest legal speeds allowed in the land.

A lot of when the ABS kicks in is dependant on the tires. Mine are real sticky, Falken Azenis RT-615s. So maybe that contributes to the ABS not kicking in so early.

Bill

 

Thoughts.

1. Bleeding is important of course. Only the upper bleeders are used (FSL has external cross over) for this purpose as the caliper is universal. It's critical that both the outers and inners are bled. In fact just open the bleeders and let it purge for 15min into a pan to thoroughly flush it. Give it one or two pump squirts each bleeder and you're golden.

2. Fluid brand, or to any extent, type (DOT5 excluded) will not effect pedal feel. Dare I say it; brake fluid is brake fluid is brake fluid but for the most hard core track users where extreme temps come into play. For street use and daily driving a good DOT3 or 4 will suffice. Soft pedal is more a sign of bleeding (or other below) than the ratings on a plastic container.

3. Rear pads. I have no clue the Mu or Cf of the pads in use here. Depending upon what's back there it may be too much rear bite.

4. Opposite of that you may find you just don't have the front bite you wish you had based in part on the pads out back. BP10s are no race pad or hard core bite style. They are however a very stable pad for multi use. Perhaps some BP20s run up to temp will better suite your needs. Or for the track use the Poly B.

5. Excessive pedal play. Depending upon condition the rear slider pins and caliper body may be binding up a bit. Rather then dragging it can apply pressure via more displacement and pedal travel, then relax to the point further from where you'd like it to be. Cycles over and over giving the impression of a soft pedal. Stop the car quickly and have a friend try to push it as soon as you stop.

6. Too light a rotor seasoning. Most guys tend to baby the pads and rotors. I dont. I run them in hard and hot. Whisps of smoke flow from the wheel wells. If the rotors were plated this takes even longer as you need to scuff off all that pretty zinc before you get to the rotor.

 

That's the exact attitude that makes me thing something isn't up to par.

I've been running the stock fluid and added a little bit of synthetic DOT 3/4 fluid to top off after bleeding. But I'm with Todd, who cares?

I'll try bleeding them more and see if I can get any air to come out... That was my hunch. I'm thinking that that could explain the ABS problem since the rear system will still be under full force braking but not the front.

Thanks for the replys everyone.

This might be a stupid question but whatever, the two sides of the Wilwoods are connected internally though the caliper right? I see that most calieprs have the two bottom bleed things tied together but mine aren't connected to anything.

 

Well, with the fluid I was more getting at the possiblity that it could have absorbed water if it's older than a few months (All brake fluid absorbs water, thats why you change it). The water lowers the boiling point of the fluid, and once it boils, your brakes will be spongy until it's replaced. You're right, if your fluid boils at 460º or 490º it's not going to matter much on the street, but if it's already boiled, that could be the problem!

It's probably just a few air bubbles in the system. I'd try to replace the fluid again and see if that helps. Rear brakes at 100% and fronts at 50% could certainly affect the ABS.

Either way, good luck!

P.S. I don't know enough about brakes, but I thought I remembered reading that you shouldn't mix various types of fluid?

 

I'm with rustboy on this one too. His comments on moisture and age are valid.

I always urge a new install to just purge the system at the time of installation. Seems foolish not too.

If you don't know how old this is or the life it's seen then pick up a bottle of your fave and just open those uppper bleeders and let it run out into a pan. You'll begin to see the color change (a plus for those who like the Blue stuff!) and when you've gone through a quart I'm sure you've got it all renewed. Put on a BB game tonight in the garage and prop up your feet while it drains, pretty laborless work.

 

Well, the whole car is only three weeks old so I don't think age has much to do with it. And, no garage here at school. When I'm home for Thanksgiving I'll have a whole week to tinker around in the garage though and I'll give the whole system a good flush and bleed. I have a pretty big bottle of high performance Valvoline synthetic brake fluid.

 

I am almost certain the only problem you have is some air in your lines.

Bleed them again and your car should feel as good as what CooperSS describes his Wilwoods. If you paid someone to install the kit and bleed the lines, I would take it back to them and complain.

 

^ Thanks.

Does anyone know what size tube fits on the bleed valves so I don't have to spray brake fluid all over again? Would fish tank tube work?

 

hm... maybe a few of us have the same problems too

as my wilwood 12.16 with the DP caliper seems to also feel not as stiff.... then again, im running standard rubber hoses in the rear with ferodo DS2500 in the back... perhaps the 2500 is taking the bite away from the front BP10s

 

Alright so I've really bled my brakes out. Hasn't solved the problem. Do the calipers have check valves? I just did it by myself and a piece of fish tank tube, that fits nicely on the nipples, assuming that there was a check valve in there. Is that even a valid way of doing it? It definitely hasn't gotten worse, maybe even a little better but I'm still setting off the rear ABS before the front can really grab.

 

Ok so I bled my brakes out and it didn't help. Do the calipers have check valves? I just did it myself with a piece of fish tank tube, that fits over the nipple nicely, assuming there was a check valve. The problem hasn't gotten worse, it may have gotten a little better. I still set the rear ABS off before the front can really bite though.

 

Did you follow a brake bleeding procedure? I recall (havn't done this yet) that you need two people. 1 at the wheel/brake, 1 pumping the break pedal, unless you have a system to keep applied pressure on the brake fluid resivoir.

I remember reading a brake bleeding how to somewhere on here.

 

Here is that 'How to'. Remember, I'm not saying you didn't do it right, just checking.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ead.php?t=4931

 

I love my Wilwoods but serious bedding makes a big difference. I thought Todd was crazy when he told me "I want to see smoke coming from those wheel wells" but he was right.

 

Gracias, that's a good write-up. I've done it before with two people but I was under the impression that the Wilwoods had a check valve so you could do it by yourself. Guess I'm the goose... I'll grab a friend and do it right and fill ya'll in.

 

So what happened?

I'm having similar ABS problems. I just replaced my JCW brakes
with the 11.75" Wilwood kit and after the "bed in" the initial bite
(once heated up) is very similar to the JCW kit but the ABS
seems to come on way too early. - Not a problem with the JCW kit.

I bleed them using the procedure referenced above but only once.
I'm going to try bleeding again but am wondering if anyone has any
other ideas?

FYI I changed out the JCW brakes b/c I thought it would be nice
to have more pad options and easy-to-change-at-the-track-pads.
Also for the reduced weight. I'll prob. switch them back if I can't
fix this.
Thanks

 

Part of the problem could be that the pedal feel is just, well, different. I noted this when driving our Wilwood 11.75 equipped MCS track ****. It felt different than my car (before I installed a BBK), but performance was noticeably better, overall... I found myself having to apply more pedal pressure with the Wilwoods than I was used to, but the car definitely S-T-O-P-S! Like, NOW! On r-comps, I rarely ever kicked in the ABS unless the surface was dirty, though.

FWIW, we're running Porterfield R4's in the rear on the MCS - definitely among the more aggro compounds out there. We also run B compounds in the Wilwoods for AX and track work. Stopping is very consistant, fade free, and definitely better than stock...

 

Thanks for the input Txwerks. I'll bleed them again and
try the B compound pads and test them with my track wheels
& R-comps before I give up on them.

 

i recently installed the TCE plus 4 and rear upgrade. i am running the BP-20 pads. at homestead, last weekend, with light wheels and r-comps the car stopped extremely well. under threshold braking, it felt as it the rear of the car was going to come off the ground. this was without the abs kicking in. i was able to go deep all weekend with no fade. i love them.

 

I cannot think of any clear reason for any ABS related issues on the 11.75 kit. The piston area of both the smaller kits is slightly larger than I use on the 13" rotor however both are well balanced for the rotor size. The smaller kits require more area as the rotor size is not bumped up as much. Still, I recall the total area to be at or near stock.

I'd not put in Poly B pads for any type of street use. The B will enhance or raise the front torque a lot. If you feel you have too much front brake now this will be even more.

I'm leaning on the response time, pedal feel, and how much leg effort one is putting into this as the greater issue. The modulation is far superior to stock with the opposed design caliper. I'm only guessing (not accusing) that some folks are simply not used to the response and modulation it offers.

 

Thanks Todd,
It very well could be that I need to get used to them.
From what you have written it might be that I need
better Rear pads? The JCW rear pads with about 13k
miles are on now. Recommendations anyone?
Right now I've got the BP-10 on front.

I do a lot of AutoX (once the season starts again) and
several track days in a year. My track /autox tires are
15"TDR Pro Race 1 wheels with Kumho V710 225/50 -15
gummy's - them together with my suspention upgrades
make my 05 JCW MINI a Porsche, Lotus & Corvette
slayer - of course lots of practice helps!

 

Agreed! B's will also EAT the rotors on the street, too.

 

I'd keep running the BP-10's on the street in the front, and buy a set of B's to swap in for AX and track work. I know some people like the BP-10's and BP-20's for AX work, but from our testing, the B's are better hands down... Major, MAJOR upgrade for AX and track work. I think the A's are too aggro for anything but full race work because they need to be kept really, really hot to keep rotor life in check, but the B's offer a major advantage over the BP-10's while providing longer rotor life.

I'd also seriously consider Porterfield R4's for the rear...