Both conditions occur. This leads me to believe I need better rubber and bigger pads/rotors. The fluid was never a problem. I only boiled fluid once in my life while driving a truck. When my passnger mechanic saw the pedal go to the floor he opened the door and tried to jump out ...funny now

The ABS condition almost always coincided with the bumpy section going into turn one, but once or twice when I went deep...too deep. Hey, I may know the track, the car is a different story.

And yes, I would prefer to have this sorted out before I take this car to Watkinsglen. I have the winter to think and the spring to experiment. Nothing, and I mean nothing scares me more than no brakes.

We need a smile icon that somehow indicates, "hey, I've just soiled myself"

 

So, are the HPS pads worth the money over the stock? I live in Sweden and drive in the winter so, it'd be nice to have brakes that work cold as well. I'll probably do a trackday or two next season and I do alot of spritied driving(don't we all ).

Or are the Ferodo's a better choice?

Thanks in advance.

 

Yes, definately. They work fine for daily commuting in cold temps here in the Northeast US.

If you are participating in a track event where your speed is 110 or above and you need to scrub off 40-50mph for a turn in a hurry - 400' - these might not be the ticket. They did fade a little.

I have no experience with Ferrodo pads, sorry.

 

I think that before you go out and spend all that money on a BBK you should just put some good track pads on...you'd be surprised how well the car stops. Then just change them out for the street.

 

I definately hear you. I'm not too keen on upsetting the stock suspension with over-powered brakes. Your suggestion is certainly one consideration, a larger rotor using the same caliper is a step up and Wilwoods 11" rotors and two pot caliper combo is the other.

I cannot add more braking power without also improving the tires; tires really do limit braking. And in reality, I need more fade resistance than I do actual braking leverage. I little braking power wouldn't be bad, but fade resistance is really the key for me.

There are better pads out there and perhaps another option is to purchase a set of stock rotors and pure track pads. They're easy enough to change at the track...a PIA, but easy enough.

Unfortunately, the correct combo will reveal itself thru experimentation. I may also find that one works great at LRP for example and another works well at Watkinsglen.

 

Rotor weight issues aside, you won't "mess up the suspension" with a BBK.

I'm not saying you need one, just making a few thing more clear.

As you say a good set of pads can lock up the tires. So can the BBK. A good design does not "over power" the car at all. It does the same as the stock parts only in a more effective manner. The improvements are feel, reaction time, thermal capacity, cooling, weight loss, and pad selection. When done properly the car has no clue what's on it for brakes.

In the case of the larger rotor with stock caliper; here you have problems brewing. Fitted with some decent pads you've simply shifted a lot of brake bias to the front of the car. That's ok to a point but too much of it and you over tax the front brakes as they do all the work. If you decide to try this (not likely as it's not going to be easy) remember you'd do well to also find a smaller piston area caliper first.

 

Todd,

I'm also very keen to leave the rear brakes alone. I don't want the back end to become unsettled either and this is a very big concern for me. Adding more rear brake can do this.

A larger rotor with the stock caliper will simply create a little more mechanical advantage. In theory, this should be a step below the BBK kit.

In the end, I worried about the brakes over-powering damping rates especially up front.

 

I'd say that too much front brake is going to do this. Wtih the fronts doing all the work in some kit cases the weight shift to the front may be over powering as you say. Meaning you brake harder and harder and...

I've landed about dead nuts on the combo kits with regard to bias and still retaining reasonable line pressure to the rears. Too much rear could prove a problem as you mention given the short wheel base of the car. If you can't keep weight on it, it can't do much to help slow the car.

If you're wondering:
Stock rotor vs larger diameter plan-
Add 1" of rotor pick up 4% front.
Add 2" of rotor pick up another 4% front.

The problem I see here however is that at the full 2" you'll be down by 10lbs of leg required and thus lower the rear pressure by 15% as well. That's going to likely reduce the effectiveness of the rears. For this reason you'd do well to search out the front replacment caliper with less piston area.

 

Or, replace the master cylinder with one that acts more like a hypodermic needle; less volume, more pressure. But this is also a technique, like the one you suggest, that is great for short tracks where psi or leg counts big time. On the other hand, some very long high speed tracks such as LeMan (no, I've never been) prefer less leg or less effort. Here, larger piston area or a different master cylinder design makes the brakes less touchy. Hence my comment about different tracks.

Todd, can I get hold of you via the phone? I don't want to over-complicate this. I would prefer to limit some experimentation...a little is fun. I just don't know whats really available for the Mini...or viable.

EDIT- Todd, got your Home Page. I'll call you later today. Thanks, Michael

 

Replacing the MC: For a softer, longer pedal travel you'd go smaller. But this will be higher pressure. For a very short and 'stout' pedal you'd go larger bore. Pedal becomes touchy with a larger bore and at a point- harder to modulate.

Keep in mind that replacing the MC will not change the bias of the car. It may bring back a loss of feel if you used a caliper with too much piston area. Yet as a single bore size the pressure change is to both ends of the car. On a dual MC set up (think race car) you can change the bore size to effect the pressure to one end of the car.

Give me a ring in a couple hours.if you like. I'm just starting my first cup of coffee at home....

 

I'm old...I just installed a camber kit on my wheelchair so I could beat my neighbor's grandmother to the baby food isle.

 

Can someone answer my question? Thanks.

 

Mario,

Hawk HPS pads are an upgrade to the stock pads and work fine in cold temps. You would be advised to drag them every now and again while on long highway drives when temps get below freezing. These definately bite harder when warm.

Dunno about Ferrodo

 

Yeah you've already answered, I really appreciate it!

 

I used the Ferodo DS2500s for quite some time, went through a number of sets over many miles. I didn't try many others, (only EBC red) but I liked them well enough for daily driving and spirited driving to continue to buy them. Less dust, as well. Never tried the Hawk HPS.

 

I ran HPS on all 4 corners yesterday at Infineon and I was happy with their performance. I just installed them a few weeks ago. Had about 500 miles them. Rotors are Powerslot frozen rotors. Toyo RA-1's 205/50/25.

Infineon has 3 hard braking zones.

1st is turn 4, then turn 7, then turn 11. The first two have plenty of run-off space. Turn 11 has a concrete wall with tires

I ran 6 sessions about 25-30 minutes each. Temps were mid 70's.

I experienced no brake fade, and felt completely confident in each hard zone. Never even thought about fade in the turn 11 zone. Turn 11 was from about 95 to probably 30. I never looked at the speedo, but that's my best guess.

Nice pads.

 

I was carrying about 25mph more speed, but I honestly do not know how much I slowed into turn one - 70mph is a guess. LRP is a mile long, so this condition would have become worse with every lap - I just backed off 10-15mph and all was fine.

How long is Infineon? I'm asking this question and adding the above so that those reading in can see the differences between the two tracks.

The straight at LRP is level...turn 4 at Infineon carries a pretty good grade, yes? Turn 11 is fairly flat?

 

Turn 4 does indeed carry a pretty good downhill grade. Turn 7 is uphill and turn 11 is flat. Turn 11 comes after the esses which are downhill increasing radius and increasing speed. Turn 10 is actually pretty fast except it is quite intimidating because an early apex or to much speed puts you into a concrete wall. If you have the confidence in 10, you can approach 11 very fast. Infineon is very technical and very un-forgiving.

The straights at Infineon are not long.