I have searched our forums and Googled on this topic (hampered by the various names for our MINI models - standardization of terms would make it less cumbersome.

Is it worth "upgrading" the front brakes on my soon to be delivered 2012 Base Cooper to OEM "S" brakes?

As Minihune has pointed out it is difficult to compare stopping distances without standardizing wheels and tires (never mind different testing stats), and the best I could find was a Canadian site review of 2011s:

Cooper "Classic" 100k - 0k = 131.89'

Cooper "S" 100k - 0K = 123.69'

Which seems to jive with Road & Track's 122' for 60-0 with 205/45R17 Dunlop SPs (no date on base Cooper).

I am assuming the Base Cooper was tested with the OE 175/65R15s - the similarity in braking perhaps being due to the lighter wheel/tires on the base: the base 15', 15 lb. wheels plus with 19lb. tires? versus the "S"'s 17" 20 lb. & 22lb. (???) tire/wheel combo?

So for an 8.2' shorter distance it hardly seems worth the trouble to upgrade to the "S" brakes (larger rotors of 11" vs. 10.2 - not sure of any differences in pads or calipers?).

Based on these stats, I am assuming that simply upgrading my my wheels to the 949Racing 6ULs (12 lbs.) with 205/50R15 Yokohama S Drives (21 lbs.) will produce shorter stopping distances than the 123' for the "S" on 17s (obviously I could upgrade the pads, although I understand the OEs are pretty good)? Am I correct here?

Note that I am VERY interested in not violating the MINI warranty conditions by using non-OE parts, and assume that a brake upgrade to "S" brakes (assume there will be some almost new take-offs for people upgrading to JCW for about $400-500) - also a very good mechanic I have found will only install MINI OE stuff

If it is not worth while upgrading to "S" brakes - I might just stuff the Yoko 205s on the Holies which will come with my car (the 949 6ULs will clear the "S" brakes I believe - but no need to buy them if not swapping).

Again - I would appreciated any feedback as I have not been able to find any info.

BTW - the Canadian site's test only showed a 1.2 second difference in 0-100K times for the 2011 "S" and "Classic" (7.1 vs. 8.3) - I know that is not the only performance measure - but a pretty applicable one to daily driving.

Thanks!

 

I would suspect ditching the OEM tires for a better performing tire will be a better use of your $$$. The justa Cooper brakes are not exactly slouches to begin with IMO. Personally I would have saved my pennies for a MCS if braking and acceleration performance are top priority. Moving to non run-flats and a set of dedicated summer performance tires can really improve the handling. Maybe not a technical answer you were asking for...

 

Good opinion thanks!

The MCS engines are a big piece of crap unfortunately - great UNRELIABLE performers Check the hundreds and hundreds of posts (so thousands?) on this site for details: vacuum pumps,. timing belts, oil leaks, cold start rattling, carbon build up on rings/valves, turbo premature failure, the list goes on.... all leading to catastrophic engine failure...usually just after 50K/48months

No evidence the 2008-2011s are any better...

My point being I can kick any unmodded, chunky option-laden "S" "For a Few Dollars More" (sport suspension, lighter wheels, smaller diameter wheels (1") for better gearing/acceleration (.3-.4s), lighter tires, rear seat delete, K&N filter, undetectable flash tune ($500), provided we are under 128 mph... and save $3K

 

Irishpunk: I would take exception to the statement: "The MCS engines are a big piece of crap unfortunately - great UNRELIABLE performers Check the hundreds and hundreds of posts (so thousands?) on this site for details: vacuum pumps,. timing belts, oil leaks, cold start rattling, carbon build up on rings/valves, turbo premature failure, the list goes on...."

If you base your opinion on posts here on NAM or other forums you might consider that what you are reading are only from folks who have had problems, not all of us are experiencing the problems you mention...my '07 MCS has 45K miles and none of the issues you mention. You might look at the following link:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-2007-mcs.html

I am also confident most of my fellow MCS owners would be happy to prove your claim that you can kick any "unmodded, chunky option-laden S" is simply not true.

 

I would point out that while forum posts will be skewed towards problems, it should be noted most problem posts are S cars. Most minis are standard coopers. While the issues with mcs are disproportionately represented here to a point, they can't be simply brushed aside either.

 

I don't personally see how taking a justa Cooper and then making all kinds of performance modifications trying to make it compete with a MCS is somehow going to make your car MORE reliable than a MCS.

If reliability is really an issue, I would suggest not buying a MINI

 

I can promise you my friend the engine in my MCS is most CERTAINLY NOT a piece of crap. Certainly SOME problems just as with a Justa Mini but most def not a piece of crap. Mines been very reliable and I expect it will remain so. These forums are for folks to post problems and thats what they do. As far as MCS vs Justa let me remind you the MCS is a more sporting vehicle and much more likely to be modded and driven in a very spirited manner than a Justa.

Question

Why whould a newbie post untrue statement(s) that were o[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]bviously intended to **** off a lot of people ???? The term flamer comes to mind. Me thinks I'll be avoiding any posts from this fellow in the future [/SIZE][/FONT]

 

Well, if the OP were talking about screwing with cams, head, pistons and so on, you would have a point. However, modding the brakes on the Justa, adding an intake, and stripping weight do nothing to hurt the cars general reliability. The issues with the S seem to be mostly with the high pressure fuel pump, timing chain tensioner, dual mass flywheel, carbon buildup, and melting hood scoop. Unless he's introducing those issues, or going deep into the engine, I don't see how a modded Cooper wouldn't stay more reliable than it's faster big brother.

That said, I think it's foolish to say a modded Cooper will be faster than an S. A heavily modded cooper can be as fast AS an S, and at that point you probably DO have a risk reliability problems. It's silly to compete in that sense. There is always a faster car out there.

 

@dannyhavok - you are most sensible, and read closely

My "conservative mods" - like a stock class, have to do with reducing weight - unsprung and sprung and improving grip (widest summer tire possible on stock rims).

If our target is 0-60 acceleration those Canadian stats show I need to make up about 1.2 sec. - again - two factors to play with: power and weight of car.

The reduced diameter tires (205/50R15 is almost .9" shorter) will give me .3 sec. - only .9s to go).

K&N drop-in - an extra 2-3 horse (maybe) - and remove rear seats, wiper motor - another .1s? only .8 to go!

I am assuming I have the edge in braking and handling (car is almost one inch lower).

**Great summary of probs - I think we missed "turbo failure" (cracked housings?).

Ironically the sticker on my 2012 Base was $22,650 (had to get sport seats to get cloth - Xenon instead of fogs) NOT INCLUDING SUNROOF (save weight) which means, with my 2007 "S" sticker of $23,700 - basically I am paying almost the same ($500 less) for a car with 60 less horsepower!! Now I have "worry-free" driving

Which is why I bought the "S" model of 2007 - such a great deal, unfortunately" UNRELIABLE

 

While the entire population of MINI Coopers are largely justa's, that does not indicate the population of those who post on NAM. Those who post here will have a significantly different proportion of MCS versus Justa's than the entire MINI population.

I imagine the proportion of Justa's to MCS to be much different here than on the road, and likely more heavily weighted towards the MSC (just my opinion since there is no hard data to back any of these claims up).

Long story short, your claim is valid but not for NAM. Enthusiasts post here, those who just own a MINI because may not.

 

Like I said, I don't doubt it's disproportionate, but there simply ARE some inherent design flaws in the R56 S, as far as I'm concerned. There are more enthusiasts here, and therefore probably more S owners. However, if there were an equal number of problems with the Justa, I imagine you'd have more new members logging on here looking for solutions, and therefore we would here about the issues. I'm not slagging S owners, or even the car itself, but I think it's fair to say if someone wants reliability but not a Japanese car, the Justa is a better bet than the MCS.

The Justa is a very fun car when modded. I'm going a similar route as the OP, modding my R50 to the greatest potential without impacting it's core reliability (IE, not fu**ing with the engine.) and simply take issue with the vocal few who always chime in with "Shoulda bought an S!"

I imagine S owners roll their eyes at "Shoulda bought a JCW!" and Works owners would react the same to "Shoulda bought an M3!"

 

@cereal and @dannyhavok - great points!

I did at one point check the proportion of sales in N.A. - surprisingly (as compared to say the Mustang and Mustang GT; or Impreza vs. WRX) "S" sales proportion is high (40/60???can't recall).

Moderators should be able to give us the NAM proportion - I suspect it is like 80/20 or more in "S" favor. I see no reason why troubles reported here would be "over-represented".

As to others saying "troubles" over-reported - in general I would say we Nammers are "sophisticated" - I worry about the "S" owners who have no clue or hint as to what to watch for or how to handle dealers - or the unsuspecting purchasers of used 2007s out of warranty.

@dannyhavok - opinion on CAI for Justa (I hate that term - in Canada they are calling the 2012s "Classic" - a term I like - maybe I can get it going here)? I would only install one before the OE warranty expires after checking with my specific dealer (New Country MINI) that they would not invalidate warranty claims because of it.

 

I really like my aFe intake. The install was super easy, it sounds great, and I feel a harder pull at 4000+RPM. I also sort of hate the term Justa but I find myself using it because it is so prevalent here and it gets across what I am referring to quickly. Anyhow, I got my aFe from VACMotorsports, who gave great customer service so I always plug them when I can.

However, a member here who knows about modding R50's (rjtrout2000) had the aFe and then switched to the WAY/DDM from WayMotorWorks. He reports better power gains with the WAY/DDM, so that's definitely something to consider. I am assuming there are nearly identical products from both vendors available for the R56. Here is a thread on the comparison:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...fe-vs-ddm.html

 

If you plan on driving hard (diving into corners), the new S brakes are the same as the first gen JCW, so theres that, for whats its worth.

 

An 8.2' shorter stopping distance may not sound like much, but keep in mind that, assuming a 1 G stop - which is a very reasonable assumption at speeds near zero - this distance can be the difference between not hitting something, and hitting it at 15.7 mph! That's how fast the standard Mini would be going when the 'S' with its 8.2'-shorter stopping distance had come to a halt.

Note also that stopping distance from 60 mph is not a very good comparator of high-performance brakes: look instead at 70 mph stopping distances, or even 100 mph stopping distances if you can find the data. Shorter is ALWAYS better...

 

Not sure about the pad question, but I do believe the calipers and pads are HD as well, prob larger although they are still single piston. Would love some 4 piston fixed but prob overkill on a car this light.
Anyhow, the larger diameter rotor equals more leverage arm, more applicable force and also more thermal flywheel mass to reduce heating and brake fading. A worthwhile swap for heavy rallying or track days, especially if you swap up to slotted or drilled/slotted rotors while doing it.
The first owner did drilled/slotted on my MCCS and they are great, I just upgraded the pads to ceramometallic although the originals weren't dead yet, way too much dust with the originals, the new ones are 85% better and way less "bitey", the modulation is incredibly superior.