In section 340-14 of the Bentley manual describing brake fluid flushes there is a warning:

"CAUTION - Bleeder hose must always remain submersed in clean brake fluid whenever the bleeder valve is open."

You don't want air or dirty fluid going back into the bleeder, but I don't quite get how you keep the hose end "always" submersed in clean fluid when (a) you start out with an empty bleeder receptacle, and (b) the dirty/old fluid needs to come out first before fresh/clean fluid comes through the system.

Is this warning just poorly written or am I missing something here?

Any insight/explanation is appreciated. Thanks.

 

You could put a 1/2 or so of new brake fluid in the receptacle. However, every time I've bled my brakes (a few times a year) I haven't ever done this. The way I bleed my brakes I don't ever have any back pressure.

 

Thanks, Mike. Do you use a pressure bleeder then?

 

I don't. I use a friend. One person at the bleeder valve and one at the brakes.

 

well its not so much back pressure at it equalizes the fluid there for u wont suck any air back in one the pedal is let off because its a vacuum system...

 

Thanks guys.

The manual is a bit misleading/confusing since with any method used you cannot always have the hose immersed in clean fluid! Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

 

I love my Motive pressure bleeder.

And I never worry about stuff like this. Just works.

 

Good to know. I will be trying it out soon. Thanks.

 

Update: Brake fluid change/flush was a success. Thanks, Paul (Blimey's owner) for the tips for using the Motive bleeder.

Is it just me or do others feel really good inside when they see that nice clean fluid coming out of that bleeder???

 

It's not just you. I love bleeding brakes.

 

I have just gotten a Motive European bleeder (supposed to fit with the MC) and some ATE Blue fluid.

Two questions:

1) After I pour the new fluid into the reservoir, connect the bleeder, and pump it up - and before I actually open any bleeder valve - should I also pump the brake pedal a few times? Will that help to dislodge air from the ABS? Or is that too much pressure for the system?

2) Do I really need to bleed the clutch slave cylinder? I am being brave by just bleeding the brakes - doing the latter may be a bit out of my comfort zone...

My 2005 MCSC has just turned over 50K today!!!

Thanks for the help-
Melanie

 

1. Take out as much fluid from the car's brake fluid reservior first. I have a fluid extractor that I use for this. Put something underneath the car to catch drips.

2. Fill up the car's brake fluid reservior with the new fluid until nearly full.

3. Make sure the Motive brake bleeder is clean by wiping it down with some paper towels.

4. Put the rest of the fluid into the Motive bleeder and put on the pump head

5. Connect the other side to the brake reservior

6. Pump the Motive until the pressure is around 12-15 psi, it can be a little more.

7. Crack open the reservior side to eliminate the air pockets there. Reconnect and tighten again, then pump the Motive again to get the pressure back up.

8. You do not need to pump the brakes. Just go to the spot furthest from the car and start. I just use a 12" transparent tubing with a fitting and a waste can. Just let it go until the clear looks good. Since you are using ATE Super Blue, you can see it change to blue. Just keep on going until you are happy with the color and no bubbles. Continue with the rest. PS: I do this with my wheels off but that is up to you.

9 After you are finished, makre sure everything is tight. Becareful removing the motive and make sure you relieve the pressure first. I sometimes can get messy here.

10. Get back into the car and then pump the brakes to get it hard before you drive around.

11. No need to bleed the clutch unless you need to.

 

Thanks very much!!! I guess I could use a turkey baster or something as my "fluid extractor", no? As long as I am careful not to drip on anything...

I actually just now cancelled my order for the Motive pressure bleeder. I spoke with a vendor on this site who sells them and he sort of dissuaded me from using one - said that the two-person approach is really better (and certainly cheaper!)

So, I guess I will do that - Randy Webb says in his write-up that he repeats the procedure - I suppose that's to ensure that all the air is out of the lines? Do most others that use the 2-person approach do this as well?

 

The argument for the 2-person system (besides being cheaper) is that the foot-on-the-pedal creates a lot more (jolting) pressure than the Motive bleeder. So, if there are air bubbles in the line, they will more likely be dislodged. If there are no stubborn bubbles in the line, however, the Motive should work just fine.

For the 2-person system, communication/coordination is key. If the pedal person lifts before the other person closes the valve then you might suck in air and cause a problem that wasn't there before. With the Motive, there is always positive pressure (as long as it is pumped) preventing entry of air.

Regardless of the system you use, repeating the procedure is just additional assurance that all bubbles (if present) are out.

Regarding the clutch bleed, if you don't do it, there will be some old fluid still in the line to the clutch. Still, bleeding the brakes and not the clutch is better than none at all.

Good luck!

 

The two person method also works, but it does take a little more effort. I have used the method since the early 80s. I cannot say it works better though.

Only one precaution is to make sure you put a 2x4 piece of wood on the bottom of the brake pedal. When you start pumping the brakes, you do not want to get to the end of travel and touch the carpeting. This is to stop it from damaging the master cylinder seals.

Yes, you can do it twice to get rid of the air bubbles and to get a really hard brake pedal. Many of the track junkies do this so that at full braking the brake pedal is not too low so you can perform heel to toe with more ease. I don't do it twice but with Motive, I can get the brake pedal quite hard so it does not depress very much at braking.

 

I've been using the Motive Bleeder on my MINI since 2004. I wouldn't bleed my brakes any other way.

Jim

 

I am a motive pressure bleeder user for the last decase or so. Works very well for me on a number of diffrent cars for me. Slinger makes a very good point about master cylinder seals for 2 man bleeding.

Alex

 

Alright....you all have convinced me...I've reordered the Motive! Getting air in the lines freaks me out.

Is bleeding the brakes part of the general factory maintenance that the shop would have done when it was under warranty? I can't recall...

At 50K and 5 years, the warranty is done now - so if it has NOT been done, even tho the brake pedal is hard and doesn't depress too much, shouldn't I still do this as part of general maintenance?
Thanks!!

 

I have found Toddtce's method of using gravity simple and very effective. I have a power bleeder but found this method easier. This guy knows brakes!

Quote from:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...e-running.html post #9

"An alternative to all this hassle is a simple, but highly effective, gravity bleed: Open bleeder nipple, let drain into bucket, continue to fill reservoir as fluid is displaced, note color change, close bleeder, rinse with WATER, done. One caliper or one end of the car at a time doesn't matter. But you'll need two buckets..."

 

I have tried that as well. It takes time, lots of time. And just don't forget about it when you are doing something else and find the brake reservior completely dry. That would be a real pain. I think this method is better if you submerge the outlet tube at the draining end in brake fluid as per the original post by the op.

The Motive method is almost the same except much faster due to pump pressure from the reservior.

I guess in thirty + years of doing brake fluid changes, I have tried just about everything out there (maybe). I will still stick to Motive...

 

Didn't mean to dissuade you from the two-person method, but I think you'll be happy with the Motive bleeder.

I don't think a brake fluid flush was part of the maintenance---I can't remember for sure, so I could be wrong.

Brake fluid absorbs water, so, yes, it should be part of general maintenance. (Water in the fluid will lower its boiling point, making the brakes ineffective or perform very poorly if they get too hot---bubbles will form and bubbles, unlike the fluid, are compressible, so when you step on the pedal, you will be compressing the bubbles instead of transferring the force via the fluid to the brake calipers.)

 

Brake fluid should be part of the three year 36K maintenance program.

I would change it quite quickly if it has not been changed for 5 years.

 

You're right. I checked my records and the brakes were flushed at ~28K miles under the maintenance program.

 

Both methods have their pluses and minuses --

Taking a long time is a relative thing -- we are talking minutes here (about 4-7 minutes) and you can do both fronts and then both rears at the same time and you do not have anything to clean when you are finished.

Mistakes can be made with the power bleeder too --- forget to de-pressurize when removing -- leaks can be a real mess -- and then you need store it and still have with you whenever it is needed.

With the gravity methods submerging the outlet tube becomes a non issues as gravity takes care of this problem.

My guess is that "toddtce" may not have you bested in number of years but I would bet that he has almost anyone beat in quantity, brakes are all he does.

I know when I purchased by TSW brakes, they specific recommended not using a power bleeder.

 

Todd Cook has been in business since 1993 so he has lots of experience doing brakes for many of his clients. I only do about 6-8 brake bleeds a year.

With Motive, since you will be pushing liquid out, you don't need to submerge anything. You get use to it pretty quickly.

I only do one wheel at a time. It takes me longer than 4 minutes to take off my rims so you are really quick to do it all in 4-7 minutes.

Everyone has their own preferences. I like motive because you can really get a very hard pedal quickly. And it has not caused any problems.