...there might be a contact problem if camber angles exceed say 3+ degrees neg with my setup and that's an educated guessn 002.

chilirojo,

Regarding the H&Rs, follow my new thread regarding a day at Don's shop. John would not corner balance the car because there is only one working coil left after the height adjustment - and John said I set the front height perfectly...the rear was a little high. There is significant spring bind and I need to find other springs... They essentially confirmed my fears. John advised me to stay away from the track until this is fixed. He said you will have the same problems you had with the Megan springs binding - instantaneous slide. One working coil is equiv. to about 1" of travel. There are 3.5 working coils out back.

I seem to remember the spring being 6" in length and that's about 2" to short if using a linear rate spring...a progressive rate spring might need more length.

 

... I'm not expert enough to know exactly how a bind issue would reveal iself, I have some track experience... and so do some other folks that put my car through the paces. I've driven it near the edge into corners and everything seemed to behave as intended. It seemed as the though the tires were letting go in a predictable way, without sudden understeer/washout/plow/etc... I can say it bucks more than I'm used to on roads with poorly engineered/leveled or ungulating surfaces; I had been attributing that to the short wheel base and limited supension travel... maybe I'll drive the front corner up on a piece of pressure treated 4x4 I have in the garage and see if the spring looks like it wants to bind. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

OK... now I'm a little skeptical about these springs I took some pictures and you can defintely see something may be a little sketchy. I'll post the pics tomorrow. Intuitively, these springs look like they just might F you up if you were pushing the limits.

Than again i read this thread:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ght=h%26R+bind

...this thread has me believing some binding is not only normal but necessary when it comes to prograssive springs; but it begs the question, how much binding is normal... especially when a car is resting peacfully in ones garage.

I'd say ignorance is bliss, but there is nothing blissful about heading into the gravel trap in turn one... major kudos to meb for bringing this to my attention.

 

Every spring has what is called block height - the height or length of the spring at full compression. Block height is an important figure to keep track of when selecting springs because although it obviously changes with length, it also changes with rate for a given length; a 400#, 6" spring will have one block height and a 300#, 6" spring will have a different block height...the 300# spring will have more spring travel, and therefore a smaller block height, because the coils are thinner.

...So, if your front springs have but one working coil left, that is not enough. The amount of travel available is limited to the actual range of motion this one coil allows.

You will notice spring bind on a smooth race track if you are indeed pushing the car to its limit. It will show up as a slide or loss of traction. This may be subtle or very apparent; it depends on the rate and severity of weight transfer.

On the road it will show up as a bit of pogoing; as the front spring reaches block height - no more suspension left - the rear takes up the slack...and when a spring reaches block height, it becomes infinitly stiff. Tire compliance and the rate of the rear springs and rear sway bar will affect how this all feels. If this H&R kit had heavy rear springs, you would notice spring bind up front easily. The car would go thru a series of very obvious front to rear oscillations.

 

here are the pictures I took... not a great pic; but, this is what it looks like at the left front corner when loaded with most of the weight of the front end (brought about by parking it on top of a 4x4, not sure how it compares to cornering load but it is defintiely pretty heavily loaded)...

 

I had a set of IE plates installed a week before the Dragon. I have an '06 MCS. We only installed one washer below and one washer above, as per the instructions. I have stock struts and the Nylock nut for the strut almost ran out of threads on the strut. The nylon only just catching. If we were to install two washer below the nut, we would have been 2-3 threads shy of engaging the nylon portion. I will need to grind the lock nut or get ones which aren't as tall. Is this common on stock struts?

I replaced the 4 cap screws with some Stainless Steel ARP studs. I was concerned about the carbon steel rusting and the aluminum blocks stripping out with repeated removal for adjustment. The studs have worked out great. If you are going to be making a lot of camber adjustments it would be a good idea, as all you need to do now is remove the 12pt jet nut while the stud remains fixed in the aluminum. I got them for piece of mind. They come with a beefy 3mm washer. You will need to grind one washer slightly to provide sufficient clearance for the two to seat side by side.

Looks like I am going to have to remove those plates.

 

Before my COs, I had stock struts with HSport springs and IE adjustable plates. I recall the strut nylock nut engaging fully with 2 washers under and 2 washers over the bearing. Here's the order at the top of the strut, from bottom to top:
upper spring perch (OEM)
1/8" thick washer (OEM)
2 IE washers, small and thin
IE bearing in Al block
IE Al block top
2 IE washers, same dim. as below
nylock nut, cranked down with impact wrench (no chance of stripping threads, btw.)
IE strut tower plate, with slots for adjustment and 3 studs for 13mm nylock nuts at strut towers.

btw, I cut my towers so that I could use the 4 extreme holes on the block, not the 4 closest together. Not that it matters, I guess.

 

Just keep in mind that although the IE plates are the same, each damper is not. I installed two spacwers below and the nylock nut is flush with the top of the threaded piston rod. I would prefer more threads ahow...

Mini7 - picutres man, pictures!

Chilirojo - not sure what happend there???

 

meb,

I hear you. It was late last night when I read the post and I have left my digital camera at work. I will swing by and pick it up tomorrow to take some pics. My lock nut is not quite flush with the stock strut and that is with one washer below the bearing as per the IE instructions.

So you guys have me concerned with the bearing possibly binding. I agree that their should be two washers to give the bearing more clearance but at the same time I did not want the strut nut backing off.

Dr Phil- I saw a guy at the Dragon who had trimmed the material on the one half of the tower to provide clearance to use the outer most holes. That also helps prevent the plates from rotating because of the leverage of the outermost holes. I don't like having to trim the tower though. I guess that the IE plates are beefier than the stock units.

I will post pics of the SS Studs. They make a lot of sense if you are making adjustments on a regular basis. For the most part I will more than likely tweek my camber to -2* neg and then leave it there. Aluminum has a bad habit of stripping when installing and removing bolts on a regular basis. I got them for some added insurance.

 

I was witness to many unwise modifications at MOTD that actually retarded the MINIs performance rather than advancing it. One such example was the improper installation of IE camber plates. In order to use them properly at least one vacant hole needs to be left open between the locking screws. Locating them in adjacent holes can easily lead to issues under load. And in order to achieve -2* trimming of the tower is required. Done right it looks great.

 

...Don, you lost me on the adjacent hole thingy...

 

I presume Don refers to the 6 threaded holes in each block that allow the 8mm cap screws to hold the camber setting on the plates. The 4 bolts should be at the extreme corners of the block, so that the middle two threaded holes remain open and visible.
As I said, this usually requires the hole in the top of the shock tower be relieved to give access to the inner two cap screws.

 

Yes, Don just confirmed via a phone call. ...I feel we need a camber kit that has been developed from 'outside' the box.

 

Don, I agree with you. I would much prefer to use the outermost hole locations to lock down the IE plates. I can see how my plates have rotated ever so slightly. Thats why I cammented on it above. I have not seen anybody trim the tower until last weekend. I have read a lot of your posts and I respect your input and comments as you are talking from experience.

I just wish that I new about the 2 washers below the bearing before I paid a mechanic to do the work. That was not shown in the install instructions. I do not have a spring compressor at home and thought it prudent to have the install done by a professional. It is only once the plates were installed that I realized the tight confines we were working in to use the locking bolts. You cannot use the outermost cap screws. I did not think of trimming the tower untill I saw it on the Dragon.

I did not really think of it as an option and I did not want to weaken the tower. I did a lot of research into the IE plates before making my purchase. They are good value for money but if you have to pay twice to get them installed it starts getting expensive + a second wheel alignment. I wish that I knew about some of the drawbacks before my purchase, thats all.

I would have planned on getting a lower profile lock nut for the strut for sure so that I could install the second spacer washer.

The H-sport may have been worth the extra bucks and I am looking forward to seeing the TSW camber plates. Those guys put a lot of thought into their products, as you do.

Meb- I am waiting for my pics to be emailed to me. Once I have them, I will post for you guys to look at.

Thanks

 

Mini7,

I installed two spacers under the bearing after inspecting the operation of the bearing in different phases of install, and calling Jeff Ireland - he said "two go under and one on top"...he didn't seem bothered by the fact that the instruction indicate otherwise. I actually used three under the bearing and in reality, that is the best because no portion of the bearing will ever contact the stock upper spring perch. But, as you and Don know, the nylock nut will barely have enough threads to capture the damper if three spacers are used under the bearing. In retrospect, the bottom of the bearing needs some additional machine work...or grinding.

Personally, triangulating the holes in the stock strut tower is begining to make some sense; if these holes can be fashioned such that each corner of the triangle is the same circumference as the stock strut bearing studs, then the stock strut bearing, and perhaps other plates, can be adjusted for both camber and caster. Strutbars will not work after this mod, but they don't do much anyway.

Everyone appear to be avoiding the strut tower, when in my reality , there are lots of compromises in most of the camber plates being sold. I don't know if these holes will compromise the strut towers, but making a template is easy enough.

 

Meb, here are the pics you requested. One or two did not focus very well. I guess it was the loose nit behind the wheel.

Does this post only allow you to attache 3 pictures at a time? I have a few more different angles but you will get the idea from these.

 

Here are the other angles for good measure

 

sorry for bringing in this old thread back to life but I have a few questions regarding assemblin the camber plates
first of all, the parts of the plates.

Upper strut plate x 1
Bolts with washers underneath x 4
Aluminum block x 2 (1 with ball bearing and one that goes above that, which is bolted on with 4 hex bolts )
Washers, buch of em.

well here are my questions. I should be receiving H&R coils sometime later and will be assembling the coils before taking off my old setup.. so bare with my noob questions.

I see that the two washers should go under the whole ireland camber unit, contacting the big OEM washer and the most bottom part of the ireland plate; the bearing. and then I see that there has to be another washer above _________________... ?? Do I have to take the aluminum block apart and put the washer somewhere inside the block?

Another question I have is which side is which? I have street adjustable and I have purchased them used from another member here. Obviously, I can't tell which ones left and which ones right o and also, where do all the bolts should go on top? I'm not looking for extreme negative cambers and I do not want to mess with the strut tower.

Please enlighten the poor noob
and thank you very much in advance.

 

Will 0 toe out in the front hurt turn in?

 

sorry wrong post! LOL