Hello kind people of the Internet: Skipping the backstory... a couple folks whose opinion I trust have said "you don't want to put on a front sway bar [unless you're going to be racing, etc]..." but they never say exactly why. So my question is, "what are the effects of a front sway bar that has people saying "you don't want to put on a front sway bar"?" (I mean, other than it being difficult to install?)

Thanks for any insight.

irieman the mod newb

 

Dunno; I love mine.

One problem might be that the car could be much rougher over potholes and ohter versions of a bad road surface. I have the priveledge of driving on fairly smooth roads most of the time, so it's not a problem for me.

 

My 1981 Ford Fiesta had no front bar...big rear bar, 165hp pushing, no, pulling 1,750lbs = some very interesting moments. This was a very close coupled car...not a lot of stupid room despite some fairly big springs up front.

Try it, what the hell. The outcome will depend alot on what else you do.

1981 Ford Fiesta...yes, I'm old!

 

I love mine...... keeps my coilovers flat

 

Randy Webb says here:

 

Because people rarely need to dial in more understeer, and when they do, there are better ways. The cars are already flat – and flatness can be increased in other ways that don't limit the independence of the front suspension.

 

I have a front sway, 27mm H&R. It makes the car addictively flat but the car is not transfering weight enough to have the front wheels bite, so I still have understeer even after adding camber plates. So I'm going to put the factory front bar back in see how I like it

 

Theres a whole article about this in the latest MC2 magazine -
it sounds like its all about the understeer and finding a balance ...
does that sound smart?

 

I think that when you add a front bar that you are now stepping deeper into the world of HAVING to understand suspension tuning. I think that using a front bar on the street is dangerous myself, unless you have spent some more time and money on other parts of the suspension. I know it's hard to do with factory struts, but I'd play with spring rates before I added a front bar.
A sway bar is a fine tune part of your suspension. Just adding a stiff front bar to make your car feel 'flat' is NOT a great idea. I am speaking from personal experience.

 

Most MINI owners change to a bigger rear bar because the stock one was too small to start with. The front bar is pretty big as it is, so to achieve neutrality, only the rear bar has to be changed

 

Trust me, a MINI can be very tail-happy with a big front swaybar. All that is needed is a set of very stiff springs to go with the swaybars, and some dampers that can keep up with the springs.

 

Transfering weight out of a turn requires a larger rear bar for a FWD auto with 60+% weight bias up front. By contrast, rear wheel drive cars need a bigger front bar to transfer weight to the rear wheels so these wheels are planted while accelerating out of a turn.

And regarding drmike's comment about a mini being tail happy even with a bigger front bar; absolutely. Each axle is traveling at a different speed thru turns. If the front end abruptly understeers thru a turn, the back end may carry enough momentum to pass the front.

 

like the Webb quote and what Onasled wrote.

If you get to the point where you're doing more than a rear bar and maybe camber plates, it's time to buy books, or work with a good suspension tuner, unless you have lots of experience yourself...

As a general rule of thumb (meaning broken whenever needed), start with geometry, then springs, then sway bar. Don't forget tire pressures and alignment settings too!

Now, one other thing most neophites to suspension tuning doen't understand until AFTER they spent money, is that suspension tuning interacts more with driving style than say, adding power, so what is good for one driver may not be good for another.

Matt

ps, when doing my Mustang, the suspension was softer, and stuck much better. So someone who knows what they're doing (Griggs did, not me! Click on the link in my sig), you don't have to go into the death spiral of stiffer, stiffer, stiffer. While little lean is nice, you have to let the suspension do it's job, and not skip over non-perfect roads like a rock skipping over water.

Also, to echo comments above, when I first started working on my Mustang, I ended up with a 1.25" (31 mm) front bar and NO rear bar. Worked pretty well.

 

I'm so glad I started this thread! I appreciate everyone's comments on both sides of the opinion and I've learned so such! Thank you to everyone- this is what makes NAM so great. Best part, the next person who is seeking answers to this, now has a wealth of quality info. I'm sure there are more opinions, insight, links, etc. out there, so keep em comin'!

irieman the mod newb
ps: so, i need springs too? (lol)

 

AMEN!

 

Take two theoretic cars; one with infinitely soft springs and the other with pipes in place os springs/dampers. These represent the two extremes. The first will equallize out every undulation/disturbance while the other will drastically upset the car.

Mechanical grip is typically hihger when spring rates are tuned towards the first example. Car control is increased when spring rates are tuned towards the second example. Control is more important - to a race car driver -, but not to the point where grip is eroded. There is a happy medium for every car, and as Doc wrote, driver.

Oh, forgot...and apply the two examples above to a 'zero car.' wheel base and track are square and the weight over each wheel is exaclty the same. A great frame of reference when we begin to compare our mini for example.

The zero car concept is not mine. I cannot, however, remember who devised this analogy.