I replied to a post under Wheels and tires and thought I would add my thoughts here too.

The Mini's hub design incorporates a flange. This flange is responsible for resisting many of the loads a tire generates. The flange is also responsible for centering the wheel - hubcentricity

H&R offer 5mm spacers, then jump to 15mm spacers. 10mm spacers for the Mini's hubs do not exist for a reason. The hub flange is 10mm thick. A 10mm spacer will in fact remove the function of this flange. I read about a few folks using two 5mm spacers. DO NOT DO THIS!!! The studs are not designed to resist all the load, especially when a wheel is turned. Wheels flex a lot under load, even the strongest forged racing wheels. The function of the flange must maintained.

Also, make sure the proper bolts/studs are used with every spacer. Even a 5mm spacer requires longer bolts/studs.

Finally, Mini Madness apparently offer a 10mm spacer and this prompted a challenge to my caution. Their picture is vague, but I cannot understand how a 10mm spacer will work. Perhaps we can see an actual picture of their 10mm spacer before knocking all 10mm spacers, but a 10mm spacer seems fairly impossible to design with a flange...if it has no flange, do not use it...or don't be on the same track with me .

I consulted with two engineers about this subject. "It's madness..." was part of one response followed by all sorts of storys about wheels flying off cars at speed on a track.

This is no joke folks!

 

This is very interesting, thanks for posting.
I also looked on the Madness site and they only show 5mm, 8mm, and 15mm spacers now.
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=132

As far as the 10mm spacer, I believe it can work with the factory wheels
that have the little holes in between the lug holes...

...the little holes would have to be tapped (7/16-14)and the spacer actually bolted to the wheel with countersunk bolts. That would give you the spacing as well as the security of still being on the hub flange.
It's more work, but if that's the spacing you need/want, I don't see any other way.
I had planned on doing this with my Webspokes, but I just ended up machining some thinner ones.

 

Ah, flange dynamics...

People forget that the lug bolts/nuts aren't what really hold the wheel on the car...

 

wait, so what happens if you drive without hubcentric rings?

 

You are relying only on the bolts to transfer all of the loads; torque, side loads, vertical loads, etc. The hubcentric ring takes most of that during normal or track driving.

You will be placing the bolts under shear loads, instead of just tension loads. With the hubcentric wheels and flange all of the shear loads are taken directly by the flange and center of the wheel. This is why it important to have proper hubcentric rings for wheels that are not bored with the correct diameter hole. Also why plastic ones are not a good idea.

It is a beautiful system when it all works together.

 

what size are we suppose to have? My rims dont have them and Ive been coached that I needed them.. But didnt think much about it until now ha...

 

The MINI hub is 56.1mm, so you need one with that ID with an OD to match the ID of your wheels.
http://www.1010tires.com/hubrings.asp

 

PARTSMAN,

Nice follow-up...I never thought of that. Then the spacer is integrated with the wheel...wonder if this is as strong as...but definately feels better than no flange.

 

Glad to see you can get into this forum again.
Definitely better than no flange. I would think that it would be strong enough, since there would be four 7/16" bolts holding the spacer to the wheel.

 

my street wheels (18 X 8 HRE's) have the correct 56.1 hub, but required a 5 mm spacer to clear my coilovers at the chosen ride height. my SSR type C-RS track wheels came w/ aluminum 56.1 inserts, but still required the 5 mm spacer to clear coilovers and TCE 13" bbk. i am having a piece machined that does double duty for my track wheels. it is a pain to mount wheels/tires with both a hubcentric ring and a spacer.....it helps to have a good machine shop next door...don't even think about using some supplied plastic hub rings on the track. they will melt and cause wheels to come flying off at a bad time. if they don't melt, you weren't driving hard enough....

 

Nice!

 

I was in Second gen mini, not first. I'm an idiot!!!

 

Yea, I think you're better navigating Lime Rock, than here.

 

My two bits:

Hub centering rings are not designed to carry the load. In fact, the bolts are also not supposed to carry the load. When they do, they shear off!

Unbelievable as it may sound, the interface between the wheel and the hub carries the load. That's right, the vertical planes which contact each other transfer all shear loads by static friction. The source of the static friction is the compression imparted by the fasteners (lug bolts or studs). Tensile loads are taken directly by reducing the spring force stored in the flange compression, that is, the loads tend to reduce the compression between the flanges that is set up by the bolts. Since the bolts have a far smaller cross-sectional area than the flange faces (even collectively), they have a much smaller spring constant, so the force they contribute to the joint varies far less per unit distance than the flange compression. In other words, the forces due to lug tightening stay fairly constant as the load varies across the flanges. This is why your wheels don't fall off around a corner.

However, it IS the reason why some folks know someone whose wheels fell off after they lubricated the studs or bolt holes. If a little bit of lubricant gets between the wheel and the hub, then the friction between the two goes down, sometimes a LOT. In that case, the bolts cannot set up enough static friction between them, and the joint can slip, resulting in a high-powered tricycle adventure. Remember to keep the threads oiled and the flanges clean!

I can go on and on about flange dynamics, but I'll stop short of the full monty. The point is, there's a lot more to the basic "four lugs and a wheel" interface than meets the eye, and nearly everyone misunderstands how it all works. This is why a thin layer of grime can cause a wheel to shear off, or why a wheel that is properly centered (by luck or by a really good cone lug fit) doesn't need centering rings.

Centering rings only center the wheel during installation, they should not carry a load.

Oh, and as for aluminum rings seizing on the hub, well, since aluminum has a far greater expansion coefficient than steel, this should not be a heat-related problem. The usual oxidation and rusting problems are possible but rarely evident.

The point made about not stacking two 5mm spacers is still VERY IMPORTANT. Don't do it! Just the idea of doing this gives me the creeps.

This sounds like a stern lecture, sorry about that. 'tis all true though.

 

i knew it was a matter of time . common sense should prevail . though i thought i've seen some spacers with a flang on them . and a recess to acommodate the factory flang . those looked acceptable .

 

Any place in the US sell hubrings? $10 to ship a set of $30 hubrings seems a little excessive to me.

Alan

 

Check with whoever sold you the aftermarket wheels. Tire Rack included metal hubcentric rings with my sale when I purchased my Kosei K-1 from them.

 

I imagine there would have to be. I only posted/saved that link because they listed the aluminum ones to fit my new wheels.

 

Actually, I'd never heard of "flange dynamics" before reading some of the posts here recently.

Hence my email this morning.

BTW, the Turner studs showed up today, and with the Muteki nuts, they look wicked with the wheels. Very high quality appearing parts all around.

 

So here's a question. When using a 5mm or 8mm spacer, the original center flange still protrudes, but less so, especially with an 8mm spacer. Does this lessen the load carrying capability, or is it sufficient just to have something?

 

From our good Dr. Mike here at TSW:

"Unbelievable as it may sound, the interface between the wheel and the hub carries the load. That's right, the vertical planes which contact each other transfer all shear loads by static friction. The source of the static friction is the compression imparted by the fasteners (lug bolts or studs). Tensile loads are taken directly by reducing the spring force stored in the flange compression, that is, the loads tend to reduce the compression between the flanges that is set up by the bolts. Since the bolts have a far smaller cross-sectional area than the flange faces (even collectively), they have a much smaller spring constant, so the force they contribute to the joint varies far less per unit distance than the flange compression. In other words, the forces due to lug tightening stay fairly constant as the load varies across the flanges. This is why your wheels don't fall off around a corner.

However, it IS the reason why some folks know someone whose wheels fell off after they lubricated the studs or bolt holes. If a little bit of lubricant gets between the wheel and the hub, then the friction between the two goes down, sometimes a LOT. In that case, the bolts cannot set up enough static friction between them, and the joint can slip, resulting in a high-powered tricycle adventure. Remember to keep the threads oiled and the flanges clean!

I can go on and on about flange dynamics, but I'll stop short of the full monty. The point is, there's a lot more to the basic "four lugs and a wheel" interface than meets the eye, and nearly everyone misunderstands how it all works. This is why a thin layer of grime can cause a wheel to shear off, or why a wheel that is properly centered (by luck or by a really good cone lug fit) doesn't need centering rings.

Centering rings only center the wheel during installation, they should not carry a load."

 

Many apply anti-seize between the hub and wheel (or spacer) to prevent them from sticking together. Is that a bad thing to do?

 

+1

 

By my calculations, yes. If I saw a friend doing this I would STRONGLY advise against it. The strength of the flange (the resistance to shear loading) is directly proportional to the coefficient of friction between the two plates (flat areas).

 

...one of the reasons a lubricant should not be applied to any bolt/nut requiring a torque value, so just about anything. I'm off my own subject by a little, but lubricating nuts and bolts will give false torque readings...meaning they will tighten easily beyond their spcified torque range causing these to over-stretch and break.

drmike, nice follow-up. Thanks.