Suspension Alignment driving me crazy
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,808
Likes: 3
Alignment driving me crazy
Hey
I got my car with a bad alignment. It chewed up my tires within 9k miles. (At the time i didn't know much about cars). I also noticed that my car didn't handle or grip half as hard as any other mini that i'd driven. I thought also at the time that the runflats were to blame. I put on the eagles, and they were just as bad. I took the car to the best suspension guy i know. I had almost an inch of total toe out at the front, and 1/2 inch total toe in at the rear. He fixed it, and the handling immediately was better, as was the grip. Then, i took it back two weeks later, and the toe was 1/2 inch total out at the front, and 1/4 inch total in at the rear.
I took my car to a motorkhana, and belted the hell out of it, and then that night, the handling felt better than any mini i'd ever driven. Steering had so much feel and there was so much more grip. But i could sense that there was even more grip to be had, cos it still had a little bit of the "crap" feel and the washing wide of the front wheels. Then the next day it got steadily worse until it was back to normal (i.e. CRAP)...
wtf is going on with my car? I want to have that handling i had after the motorkhana.
I got my car with a bad alignment. It chewed up my tires within 9k miles. (At the time i didn't know much about cars). I also noticed that my car didn't handle or grip half as hard as any other mini that i'd driven. I thought also at the time that the runflats were to blame. I put on the eagles, and they were just as bad. I took the car to the best suspension guy i know. I had almost an inch of total toe out at the front, and 1/2 inch total toe in at the rear. He fixed it, and the handling immediately was better, as was the grip. Then, i took it back two weeks later, and the toe was 1/2 inch total out at the front, and 1/4 inch total in at the rear.
I took my car to a motorkhana, and belted the hell out of it, and then that night, the handling felt better than any mini i'd ever driven. Steering had so much feel and there was so much more grip. But i could sense that there was even more grip to be had, cos it still had a little bit of the "crap" feel and the washing wide of the front wheels. Then the next day it got steadily worse until it was back to normal (i.e. CRAP)...
wtf is going on with my car? I want to have that handling i had after the motorkhana.
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 664
Likes: 1
Check your strut mounts. Look to see if the rubber is cracked and that the strut towers are completely flat. That's all I can think of...
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OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
All alignment shops offer warranty on the alignment as set to specs either factory settings or your own. They will print a final reading of all toe and camber/castor settings for your car as a routine.
Did you get a print out and what did it read after the alignment.
What kind of shop does your "best suspension guy" have? Is it a brake and alignment specialty shop of a basic garage with basic equiptment?
If you have a modified MINI you are best off going to a specialty shop that does alignments to your specs.
It sounds like your alignment settings are initially ok but then don't stay that way. So if that is true even after only a few weeks you might have something worn or loose that is causing the alignment to change or you may have hit something like a road hazzard or pothole.
Normal track driving doesn't change alignment in such a short time.
Even for a tracked MINI alignment should be about-
1/16" toe out in the front and 1/16" toe in or zero toe in the rear.
1" toe out in the front will just handle poorly and wear out your tires, and even 1/2" out is no good. MINI stock settings are toe in for the front and rears.
What are your camber settings and what suspension mods do you have in total. Is anyone else driving your car.
Under normal wear alignment often can last a year or 20,000 miles at least and usually longer.
Go to a reputable shop and explain the situation so that they can check what is worn or loose. If your suspension guy is a specialist in alignment for competition cars then you can go back to him and explain what is happening.
I have seen the entire front subframe missing bolts and loose from being tracked, be sure to get the MINI up on a lift and check for anything missing.
Did you get a print out and what did it read after the alignment.
What kind of shop does your "best suspension guy" have? Is it a brake and alignment specialty shop of a basic garage with basic equiptment?
If you have a modified MINI you are best off going to a specialty shop that does alignments to your specs.
It sounds like your alignment settings are initially ok but then don't stay that way. So if that is true even after only a few weeks you might have something worn or loose that is causing the alignment to change or you may have hit something like a road hazzard or pothole.
Normal track driving doesn't change alignment in such a short time.
Even for a tracked MINI alignment should be about-
1/16" toe out in the front and 1/16" toe in or zero toe in the rear.
1" toe out in the front will just handle poorly and wear out your tires, and even 1/2" out is no good. MINI stock settings are toe in for the front and rears.
What are your camber settings and what suspension mods do you have in total. Is anyone else driving your car.
Under normal wear alignment often can last a year or 20,000 miles at least and usually longer.
Go to a reputable shop and explain the situation so that they can check what is worn or loose. If your suspension guy is a specialist in alignment for competition cars then you can go back to him and explain what is happening.
I have seen the entire front subframe missing bolts and loose from being tracked, be sure to get the MINI up on a lift and check for anything missing.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,808
Likes: 3
All alignment shops offer warranty on the alignment as set to specs either factory settings or your own. They will print a final reading of all toe and camber/castor settings for your car as a routine.
Did you get a print out and what did it read after the alignment.
I didn't get a print out, but he told me what the readings were. 10mm out at the front, can't remember if that was total or per wheel. 5mm in at the rear, again, not sure if total or per wheel. Then he reset them back to 0 all round
What kind of shop does your "best suspension guy" have? Is it a brake and alignment specialty shop of a basic garage with basic equiptment?
He has a nice shop full of race cars, ferraris, porsche turbos, racing elises, AMGs. He is primarily a suspension shop, but he can do brakes and other odd jobs as part of a package. He deals with a lot of rich ppl
If you have a modified MINI you are best off going to a specialty shop that does alignments to your specs.
He is a specialist. I gave him my own specs. 0 toe all round and rear camber set to whatever it was before (i have an 05 MCS)
It sounds like your alignment settings are initially ok but then don't stay that way. So if that is true even after only a few weeks you might have something worn or loose that is causing the alignment to change or you may have hit something like a road hazzard or pothole.
I certainly didn't hit any potholes or anything. Also i've had alignments before, and the toe kept coming out.
Normal track driving doesn't change alignment in such a short time.
I did lots of skidpan thrashing (without a wetted surface)
Even for a tracked MINI alignment should be about-
1/16" toe out in the front and 1/16" toe in or zero toe in the rear.
1" toe out in the front will just handle poorly and wear out your tires, and even 1/2" out is no good. MINI stock settings are toe in for the front and rears.
Trust me i know, my MCS handles like a piece of crap.
What are your camber settings and what suspension mods do you have in total. Is anyone else driving your car.
Have only a 20mm adjustable rear swaybar, stock suspension, no plates or arms, and only i drive my car. Camber settings are stock.
Under normal wear alignment often can last a year or 20,000 miles at least and usually longer.
I know, and so far i've lost 8 tires in about 15k miles.
Go to a reputable shop and explain the situation so that they can check what is worn or loose. If your suspension guy is a specialist in alignment for competition cars then you can go back to him and explain what is happening.
I'm going to BMW to get the car realigned to their specs, and if the alignment comes out again, i'll take it back to them.
I have seen the entire front subframe missing bolts and loose from being tracked, be sure to get the MINI up on a lift and check for anything missing.
I asked them to do this. They told me that they couldn't fault anything, i asked them to check everything that would suggest a regular alignment issue.
Did you get a print out and what did it read after the alignment.
I didn't get a print out, but he told me what the readings were. 10mm out at the front, can't remember if that was total or per wheel. 5mm in at the rear, again, not sure if total or per wheel. Then he reset them back to 0 all round
What kind of shop does your "best suspension guy" have? Is it a brake and alignment specialty shop of a basic garage with basic equiptment?
He has a nice shop full of race cars, ferraris, porsche turbos, racing elises, AMGs. He is primarily a suspension shop, but he can do brakes and other odd jobs as part of a package. He deals with a lot of rich ppl
If you have a modified MINI you are best off going to a specialty shop that does alignments to your specs.
He is a specialist. I gave him my own specs. 0 toe all round and rear camber set to whatever it was before (i have an 05 MCS)
It sounds like your alignment settings are initially ok but then don't stay that way. So if that is true even after only a few weeks you might have something worn or loose that is causing the alignment to change or you may have hit something like a road hazzard or pothole.
I certainly didn't hit any potholes or anything. Also i've had alignments before, and the toe kept coming out.
Normal track driving doesn't change alignment in such a short time.
I did lots of skidpan thrashing (without a wetted surface)
Even for a tracked MINI alignment should be about-
1/16" toe out in the front and 1/16" toe in or zero toe in the rear.
1" toe out in the front will just handle poorly and wear out your tires, and even 1/2" out is no good. MINI stock settings are toe in for the front and rears.
Trust me i know, my MCS handles like a piece of crap.
What are your camber settings and what suspension mods do you have in total. Is anyone else driving your car.
Have only a 20mm adjustable rear swaybar, stock suspension, no plates or arms, and only i drive my car. Camber settings are stock.
Under normal wear alignment often can last a year or 20,000 miles at least and usually longer.
I know, and so far i've lost 8 tires in about 15k miles.
Go to a reputable shop and explain the situation so that they can check what is worn or loose. If your suspension guy is a specialist in alignment for competition cars then you can go back to him and explain what is happening.
I'm going to BMW to get the car realigned to their specs, and if the alignment comes out again, i'll take it back to them.
I have seen the entire front subframe missing bolts and loose from being tracked, be sure to get the MINI up on a lift and check for anything missing.
I asked them to do this. They told me that they couldn't fault anything, i asked them to check everything that would suggest a regular alignment issue.
AliceCooper i'll tell them to check that as well, thanks
Banned
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,299
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From: Tejas
I would make sure that they're locking the collars down well on the front steering arms - can't imagine they wouldn't be. Also, it's necessary to hold the arms static while tightening the collar, else the setting can change.
One other thing I can think of - I assume they're just putting the car on the rack at the static ride height and not unloading the suspension beforehand - that can cause the readings to be one thing and then change when the suspension settles back in...
One other thing I can think of - I assume they're just putting the car on the rack at the static ride height and not unloading the suspension beforehand - that can cause the readings to be one thing and then change when the suspension settles back in...
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 7
From: Pipe Creek, Texas
Let’s say that when the car was raised before being placed on the floating pads that it was raised from the body instead of under the suspension so the springs had little chance of settling; toe would change more positive (toe-in) in the front after loading again instead of out. It’s puzzling how toe out could change by such a large amount even if both front control arm bushings were wasted and the collar on the tie rod had loosened; the later would be easy to detect, just reach in and grab the tie rod or try turning the nut.
I’m not saying this is the cause of etalj’s rear toe change but this is a daytime nightmare I experienced once. I had my first MINI alignment done in Lewisville TX and it was very painful to watch, crappy machine, poor treatment of my wheels (each one chipped), un-willingness of the supposed tech to use a torque wrench, 50 miles south of Dallas handling went off; I could here a clunk at every sharp turn. What I discovered were all the jam nuts on my adjustable control arms had backed off (camber didn’t change much however), and the bolts on my trailing arm brackets were loose; the passenger’s side was shifting causing the clunk.
Let’s assume the shop that did the work for etalj performed the lift correctly and was conscientious when tightening the nuts and bolts, it becomes implausible to expect front and rear suspension component failure simultaneously; something is missing here.
I’m not saying this is the cause of etalj’s rear toe change but this is a daytime nightmare I experienced once. I had my first MINI alignment done in Lewisville TX and it was very painful to watch, crappy machine, poor treatment of my wheels (each one chipped), un-willingness of the supposed tech to use a torque wrench, 50 miles south of Dallas handling went off; I could here a clunk at every sharp turn. What I discovered were all the jam nuts on my adjustable control arms had backed off (camber didn’t change much however), and the bolts on my trailing arm brackets were loose; the passenger’s side was shifting causing the clunk.
Let’s assume the shop that did the work for etalj performed the lift correctly and was conscientious when tightening the nuts and bolts, it becomes implausible to expect front and rear suspension component failure simultaneously; something is missing here.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,808
Likes: 3
is this a procedure that has to be with all cars? Cos i'm sure he'd know to do this.
That said, the car hasn't been aligned at BMW yet, so we'll wait to see what happens after that
Thanks so much for your input, its been really helpful.
That said, the car hasn't been aligned at BMW yet, so we'll wait to see what happens after that
Thanks so much for your input, its been really helpful.
Alliance Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,101
Likes: 229
From: York, Pennsylvania
If the toe changed 1/4 to 1/2 inch in a couple weeks with no traumatic event,
I'd check the front control arm bushings and rear trailing arm bushings
for wear and excessive play.
I'd check the front control arm bushings and rear trailing arm bushings
for wear and excessive play.
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
If you have stock suspension and camber then if you drive aggressively on the street and do any track driving then I'd expect severe wear on your tires due to a lack of negative camber especially in the front plus the wear due to too much toe out.
Normal alignment for the MINI from the factory should be toe in for both front and rear. Zero toe is OK also for your use, BMW will want to set the alignment to factory specs which is fine. Anything goes wrong take it back to them. They do charge alot more, I pay about $90 for 4 wheel thrust alignment and do it about once each year.
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,808
Likes: 3
Like I mentioned, all alignments are warrantied for about 6 months or 5000 miles at least. All shops that I have gone to for specialty alignment have given me a print out of before and after specs.
If you have stock suspension and camber then if you drive aggressively on the street and do any track driving then I'd expect severe wear on your tires due to a lack of negative camber especially in the front plus the wear due to too much toe out.
Normal alignment for the MINI from the factory should be toe in for both front and rear. Zero toe is OK also for your use, BMW will want to set the alignment to factory specs which is fine. Anything goes wrong take it back to them. They do charge alot more, I pay about $90 for 4 wheel thrust alignment and do it about once each year.
If you have stock suspension and camber then if you drive aggressively on the street and do any track driving then I'd expect severe wear on your tires due to a lack of negative camber especially in the front plus the wear due to too much toe out.
Normal alignment for the MINI from the factory should be toe in for both front and rear. Zero toe is OK also for your use, BMW will want to set the alignment to factory specs which is fine. Anything goes wrong take it back to them. They do charge alot more, I pay about $90 for 4 wheel thrust alignment and do it about once each year.
i don't drive agressively on the street that often due to the fact that i have no grip.
BTW, does the toe out also contribute to the vague feeling i get from the steering wheel?
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