Alta Positive Steering response System

Anyone using or or another product that does the same thing?
Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

Cool, .... but...
I might be worried that using these without doing some major mods to the rear would be like diving with snow tires on the rears only. I use this example as I tried this one day for fun. The car was outrageously dangerous.

 

it increases castor. There are some plates that allow for castor adjustment from the top, but I don't really understand the benfits of doing it at one place or the other. But with this guy it looks like you'd eliminate some complience, holding geometry a bit better.

Matt

 

I know that I would never do this on the track. Castor adjusting is not the problem, but the fact that now you have a very responsive front end and a somewhat sloppy, in comparison, rear suspension. Talk about oversteer! Yikes! You'd be spinning on most corners I would think.

 

...do these fit the rear of the LCA? If so, I installed the Powerflex bushings along with Irelands rear control links - all 4. The Mini's steering response is nearly insane.

If these go where I think they do, a sperical ball joint install in the rear trailing arm should be performed at the same time. This looks like a track only mod - as the P-flex bushings should be. The stockers are just fine in hindsight.

I agree with Greg, one should try to achieve the same compliance front to rear.

 

See starting from post#18 in this thread from someone who has been running pre-production units: http://www.motoringunderground.com/f...5160#post85160

 

Dang, beat me to it

 

so what is the verdict.... this is an area of the car I want to improve.... has anyone used these on the road/twisties/interstate etc?

 

is even MORE true with suspensions. Define your goals, and either learn a lot from reading and talking, or work with someone who knows suspension tuning and modification to improve the overall system (best world = do both). I think because of the ways that suspensions are built, there's a lot more "crosstalk" among components...... Sure, there's lots of stuff that can be made better, but with suspensions missteps usually result in much worse performance. With power adders, ususally they just underperform.... not living up to promise....

Matt

 

I wonder what these would do to help make my lauches at the strip more positive feeling.

 

If you buy these Rick they will most definitely get rid of your wondering.

 

...sounds very interesting. The problem, yes I like that word, here is that a package is wht typically defines a car's traits. Do we know what else this fellow has done that might act in concert to help an over-all positive package? It might not work on an otherwise stock Mini. But I'm intrigued.

Adding a little more caster - 1.5 degrees is not that much and is certainly advised with cars that have neg camber values 1.5 degrees or more; caster adds back a little feel. The negative comment against caster in post #18 is correct in part, but perhaps not in reality; more caster will add strightline stability because it moves trail's leverage point farther out in front of the wheel's side view centerline. The farther out this point moves, within reason, the stronger the tendency of the wheel to follow it. Caster has also been said to aid cornering because it applys a diagonal force from the outside turning wheel to the inside rear wheel; it does this because it raises the front end on the outside turning wheel, but lowers the inside turn wheel and most folks forget this. SAi or king pin raise both wheels. So too much caster will wash-out SAI and ruin the effect of self centering.

"...more compliance..." I don't really know enough about how this bushing was designed, but more comliance in a good direction, or less binding - a different way of writing the same thing - feels like a good thing.

I don't know how more caster is achieved though. I envision that the LCA is moved forward a bit. But then, this would also remove articulation from the front pick up point, the ball joint. I don't know if this is a bad thing. someone would need to take a look at the motion of the control arm.

In the end, the guy who tested these races (at what level) and is apparently really happy. These appear to cure some problems, and even enhance adjustabilty - more caster. I might have to try these - the 335i deal is off.

 

One thing that wasn't clear to me but I'm assuming this component adds to the OEM caster value(whatever that is??).
So you could only add to whatever that base value is.

True?

 

I would say yes, otherwise why even mention it as an asset to this product...I would hope.

But still, I cannot see how this works; I imagine the the rear of the lower control arm is moved forward (?), which in turn moves the front pickup point forward(?) - removing some articulation potential(?) - while maintaining the stock strut location(?). We're disregarding camber here. In other words, the wheel shifts forward. Most caster applications tilt the upper strut attachement point back, or in the case of SLA suspensions, the ball joint can be moved back.

I'm very curious...but I'm not rushing out to remove my P-Flex bushings

 

It moves the pivot shaft left or right which moves the steering knuckle via the outer ball joint attachment; the inner ball joint remains fixed.


Place a carpenter’s square on the table and you’ll get a good idea; hold the zero axis stable and move one of the ends.

 

I'm looking for a little more precision in the feel of the wheel..... I had my car set up tp Randy Webbs spec and for the street it was too twitchy....... I have a more subdue set up now..... I just want a more "positive" connection between the Steering wheel and the wheels..... I know this sounds ambiguous ... but I am jsut starting my education into suspension....

 

Thanks Keith.
So? Good thing or bad thing?

Additional question. Would this be better in conjunction with P-Flex bushings throughout the front and probably rear suspension?

As mentioned earlier I can't see this being a stand alone mod however good? it may be. Any additional thoughts on what should should be improved along with this piece would be appreciated. Even if it's just do a full bushing replacement and forget about it.

thanks

 

What I noticed when installing the control arm bushing brackets is caster can be altered a small amount by moving the brackets inward or outward. What I also discovered is the axial relationship of the pivot shaft changes also; a bind could be induced (with Powerflex bushings) at full compression or extension depending upon the direction the bracket moved. There is more than one dimensional plane affected. Without getting a good look at this new device I can’t see how this issue is addressed.

obehave, for real world street use the fluid filled, sloppy, ***** nilly tracking, OEM bushing offers a good compromise. But, for performance, stiffening the control arm bushing pays dividends on many levels including as a stand alone mod. My vehicle has always had out-of-spec caster values and a large disparity between left & right struts. I was able to find a good compromise for control arm pivot range of motion, increase caster a minor amount and reduce the difference between left & right values by moving the bushing bracket. So, as for adjustability via the control arm bushing point, it could be useful, but I still have gaps in understanding the overall relationship of all movements involved in the front suspension (Alta’s part included) and whether “cocking” the pivoting shaft would have any detrimental affect.

When it comes to performance, I feel solid pivot points for the rear control arms (camber/toe links), is another useful change over stock bushings.

 

Thanks again. I am at 42K and out of warranty. I have always liked urethane bushing in the past on other vehicles. I have also finally found a local shop I can trust to do good suspension work. One of the guys auto-x'd on a National level and absolutely beats the pi&& out of me in a bone stock Cooper.

Not cheap but they definitely know what they're doing.

I will be doing heim jointed rear links soon as well along with the rear trailing arm mount point so I'm looking for good all around tuning. I'm still on OEM struts though and probably will be for a while.

 

Ok, what's the down side of this mod? Additional noise/vibration?

 

I can only speculate about NVH based on my experience with poly bushing replacement; I don’t know what material Alta is using for this part. The control arm bushing carrier is hard mounted to the subframe so ballistic shock energy is transferred there and to the inner ball joint as well as to the strut spring. Without a very compliant bushing to absorb the shock on the pivot shaft end it will be felt and heard within the cabin. I don’t experience any added vibration with the poly bushing over rough roads but abrupt pavement irregularities get my attention.

 

ekim,
The only downside is the NVH. But the NVH isn't bad driving down the road, only with pot holes. The solid connection is made using SS, ALum, and Delrin.

K-huevo,
The transfer of shock doesn't really go into the bushings as much as you said unless you are hitting big holes, or curbs. Since the bushing doesn't deflect, the bumps are transfered to the struts, not to bashing the bushing. BUt that is why they make more noise under really big holes. But normal driving, and normal rough roads, you won't notice too much more noise. I would say its like having 18's vs 17's and low profile tires.

We have been testing these parts on a few peoples cars for a while, and with some great input, esspecially from Bob at Canyon Motorsports, we have poked the button. Expect to see these in dealers hands in DEC!

One thing people will really dig is that the car will feel like it steers even quicker! And much more precise.

not-so-rednwhitecooper,
Next time you are drag racing have someone watch how much the front wheels move forward! Its amazing! The PSRS gets rid of that.