OK... So if I install the IE fixed camber plates, the H&R springs, ALTA lower control arms, and ALTA 19mm RSB... Would a good aggressive street with some hwy commuting set up be... 1.25 neg camber in the front, 2.25 neg camber in the rear at 0 toe front and rear???

Xmas is right around the corner!!! I have to be ready!!! I can't wait!!!

THANKS for the info.

 

K-huevo just schooled me on a PM.

The 1.25 neg camber would be if the car remains at its stock height....so when lowering the car, even with minimal H&R's the camber amount will be greater than 1.25 . you are a freakin genius, why did'nt I think about that???
So is it safe to say that I should probably run 1 degree more neg camber in the rear than the front, depending on what the front ends up with..as it is fixed.
Then just some minimal toe in on the rear...like???? and the front toes keep zero or what??
Thanks for the lesson.

 

Stock front camber is .5 degrees negative which is almost straight up & down. Combine that with stock spring ride height and the way the steering knuckle articulates and you end up with a neutral sweet spot of almost an inch of travel where camber remains relatively unchanged. Once camber is externally manipulated, the travel arc and hub angle fall outside of that sweet spot so any lowering increases negative camber exponentially.

The amount of negative camber you dial-in to the rear depends on your driving style, skill level, comfort zone, and the intended use of the vehicle. I would suggest for street use rear camber of less than 2 degrees negative because ride quality deteriorates after that, and not less than 1 degree because traction is reduced at above normal lateral Gs. Tire pressures must also be adjusted, but for the moment we’ll confine this to an alignment discussion. Another simplistic general rule for street would be a difference of half a degree camber between front and rear. More negative in the rear if you desire a little understeer, more in the front if slight oversteer or neutral characteristics are the goal. BTW, neutral handling behavior can be achieved, even with more camber in the rear, but lets keep this simple for the time being.

With tire wear off the table, toe settings also fall into the “what do you want the car to do?” category. Toe in is good for effortless street & highway daily driving. A little out in the front and neutral in the rear quickens steering; good for some competition uses, charging the Pyrenees, or fearless canyon carvers.

 

And if you wanna play with an SLA suspension, static camber values become really important as a Short and Long Arm (unequal length A-arm) gains camber as a car leans in stock garb. So finding the correct value for a car that has been lowered is really important as lowering potentially places this setup in a very aggressive part of the camber curve. The Mini might be a real killer with this type of suspension up front...

Nice info Kieth!

 

Just a stupid question...when installing these, they should move the struts closer to the center of the car...correct? that is...they should be mounted closeer to the center...right?

 

Since the JCW drop is negligible, it'll still be close to 1.25 neg camber, right?

 

You are correct AliceCooper, when installed correctly, the tops of the struts have moved towards the center of the car.
(When you look down on them from under the hood, the tops of the struts will no longer be centered in the hole in the body. They will be obviously off-center toward the inside.)

Enjoy.

 

the fronts a Mac strut, and the rear is more like equal length A arms with a shorter distance at the inner pivots than the outer.

so the relative motion curves are going to suck pretty much no matter what you do.

Matt

Hay Keith, I wanted to plot the camber vs deflection for my car. It's up in the air, and taking the springs out to do it right would be easy. Do you know of a good camber gauge for home use? -M-

 

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...1206&iorb=4764

This is the one we use... I can verify the accuracy is within 0.1 degree if you follow the instructions on calibrating. We've taken cars we've aligned with this and SmartStrings and been dead on when hitting a full alignment rig on way more than one occassion...

 

Thanks...I installed these a few days ago...and realized that they can be installed both ways...I almost installed them backwards...that would have sucked...

I also made the mistake of having sears align my front afterwards...since I was still within my 6000 mi warranty of my last alignment...now my car seems to be a bit screwy...It veers to the right, especially when I give it gas. Also when turning left, I seem to have significantly less traction than I did before. Turning right seems to be better than before though. Although trying to test out your suspension's capabilities in south FL is a bit difficult without going ridiculously fast...everything is straight. I told them to ignore the camber and just change the toe in to 0. That should have been really easy. I don't know what the hell they did.

 

Did you get a printout of the final alignment settings?

 

Yea, but I haven't been able to look at them yet. I'll definitely check tonight! What I'm wondering is whether those printouts are directly from the machine or whether they type it in. I've had 3 alignments from them in the last month...I wonder if they are tired of me bothering them for free sh*t.

 

start calling friends in the area, and talking to the track rats you know. Find the shop that they use for their high end sports and race cars. Drive there, swallow the fact that the alignement may cost upwards of 2x the cheapies, and start with a conversation with your tech about how you want to drive and your skill levels. It will take longer, it will cost more, but there's no other way to really make sure that you get set up right.

I use a place near where I live. Single axle allignement is $120. $240 each time I go there, minimum. Corner balancing doubles that. But here's what I get in return. The very same tech (a guy named Kevin) works on my car each and every time. We aren't really buddies, but he remembers me and we get along. He also remembers what we talked about last time, and the changes we made, and when he reads the tread on the tires, he helps me learn what I'm doing wrong (I always go too long before filling the tires, and always run a bit low on pressures) and what we can do to either make the tires last better, or improve some aspect of handling that I'm looking to change.

You will never, ever, ever, ever get this from either a dealer or a quicky shop, people turn over way too fast, and the quicky shops make money not by talking but by turning cars over fast. I've been going to my shop for about 8-10 years now, they know both my performance cars, and I get much more education and coaching on driving habits than I'd have every believed possible. You'd be surprised what a good set of trained eyes can learn by looking at you tire wear.

Good luck getting it fixed, who knows, maybe Sears could actually get it close to what it should be.

Matt

 

Sears can get it within what they call an "acceptable range". But I'm sure that their "alignment tech" is doing nothing more than putting the numbers in that range. They likely have no idea of the effect of those numbers on handling. When I explained to them about the negative camber plates, they said why would you want to change that? Won't that throw everything off?...Intelligence is obviously lacking there...

But then if they had a really good tech who really understood and knew what they were doing...they would probably leave very quickly and work for a better shop.

 

This is all such great info!!!

Does anybody know of a proper shop to get a "good" alignment in Santa Barbara county?
I live in SB but would easily drive as far north as Santa Maria or south to Ventura or so.

Oh and AliceCooper...you are right about S.Fla roads! You get really excited about freeway onramps!
I used to live there for almost 7 years. People used to ask me "what do you miss most about not being in SoCal/Santa Barbara?, the chicks?, the waves?, the weather?" I would say "No... the roads!!! oh and I guess the weather...and maybe the chicks..."

 

sounds like it. I'd like to get some fixed camber plates like IE's to go with my JCW stuff sitting in a box (no tophats). Any suggestions for the rear? Just pick up a spare set of rear tophats?

 

hum now im really confused, i always thought your suppose to have -1 or more then what you have up front . Now i have -1.80 up front and -0.80 in the rear with toe set to 0 front and back. I always knew i could make the car handle much better but always thought it would be bad to have to much camber in the rear, and i also want my tires to last more then a couple months as least , any suggestions on if my camber setting is wrong or right ?

 

will the m7 strutbrace still clear everything with the fixed ireland camber plates?

 

why wouldn't it?

 

Absolutely, mine do.

Paul

 

yep, not even an issue. I have the USS and STB.

 

I just had the IE fixed camber plates installed, now my front tires rub when turning 90* left or right. Suspension is stock (except for the camber plates), I'm running a 225/45/17 tire on a 17X7 wheel (on the street - I run 16's for AX) with ET42. Anyone else have a rubbing issue? I know 225 is a lot of tire, but I like the look and feeling of security with all of that rubber. I haven't had a chance to to see what part of the tire is rubbing what part of the fender, but if others have already had this issue can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

 

How did you get 225s on a X7? I thought you had to do X8 minimum.

 

225's work on a 7, though not ideal - 7.5 is mo betterer. 235-245 on 8inch (speaking strictly for rim/tire fitment, not MCS use).

 

Mo betterer? Wrong thread Try www.engrish.com